Alyxandra Larson
Good morning, noon, and night. This is Alyxandra Larson from the Kansas Trans Oral History Project. Today I’ll be in conversation with Jojo Katsbulus. Jojo, could you tell me your name, age, and the pronouns that you prefer?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah, my name is JoJo Katsbulas, I am 24 years old, and I prefer he/they pronouns.
Alyxandra Larson
Awesome, thank you so much. Could you tell me where you’re from too?
Jojo Katsbulas
I am from Topeka,Kansas, Tecumseh, Kansas. And I live in Lawrence, Kansas now.
Alyxandra Larson
You mentioned Topeka, and then Tecumseh. Do you have a specific tie to one or the other when you talk about where you’re from?
Jojo Katsbulas
I think I feel more attached to Tecumseh, but I definitely grew up in Topeka – in Topeka proper. So I wouldn’t- I just feel, like, more emotionally attached to Tecumseh, but I would say I’m from Topeka in general.
Alyxandra Larson
Yeah, absolutely. And then would you tell me a little bit about your gender identity, please?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah, so that’s a complicated one. I would say that I identify as genderqueer, which to me, kind of, just means that I don’t necessarily associate with any gender at any given point and that I find myself experiencing gender differently at all times, whether that’s a male gender, a female gender, or anything in between; whether that’s a non-binary-androgynous type of presentation or more of a feminized-non-binary type of presentation.
I just find the idea of gender to be odd. And so I just, like, let it pass through me as it feels right.
Alyxandra Larson
I love that. I sometimes wonder too, when we talk about gender specifically, I think genderqueer is really fun from a Trans-perspective because you really do allow that full range of gender, kind of like what you’re saying with the different presentations of non-binary, to either side of the binary as well. So I absolutely love that. Thank you.
Jojo Katsbulas
Thank you.
Yeah, I think even more so on that is, like, I don’t often present myself in a- in an ultra-feminine way. I don’t find myself wearing dresses or skirts – and not that I think clothing has gender, but in the way that clothing has been prescribed gender by our society – I don’t find myself presenting in a feminized way that society would pick up on, but I find my presentation of myself to be feminine to me, if that makes sense.
I see my own presentation as more masculine, but I allow myself to experience and… experiment with the feminine presentations that feel correct to me.
Alyxandra Larson
Absolutely. Do you feel like that’s something that’s like being in touch with your femininity at all times yet presenting the masculine? Or how does that feel for you? What’s the balance in that way, if there is one?
Jojo Katsbulas
I think it is being in touch with my feminine side, for sure. I think I’ve always felt more connected to women, whether that’s in friendships or family relationships or what have you. I feel truly tied to what is feminine to me. But yeah, I just, I find myself presenting in a more masculine way, even through that femininity.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you feel that your gender identity – I think sometimes people have questions about whether or not non-binary, genderqueer, gender non-conforming folks are of a Trans experience – could you talk a little bit about what that has been like for you relating your gender to transness?
Jojo Katsbulas
Absolutely. So this is going to be a little bit meta, because I think how I came to understand my gender identity, which is genderqueer, to be a transgender identity is through you, through Alyx Larson. Just in conversation and through communicating what it means to be transgender and what it means to trans genders.
So, being assigned male at birth, I do believe that I have trans-ed genders in the way that I have- I no longer identify with what I was assigned at birth. I am not, I wouldn’t say that I have participated in any form of transition other than, than re-identifying myself. I don’t- I don’t take hormones; I don’t have any medical procedures done; I don’t necessarily, like, present as though I have transed my genders, but I feel, like, under the umbrella of what it means to be transgender, I do fall into that. And having that experience of being assigned one identity and moving through the changes is… why I feel that association to being transgender.
Alyxandra Larson
Awesome. Thanks for sharing and I appreciate too anecdotally that I was able to be a part of that journey for you. I think it’s interesting that you mention your involvement or non-involvement with transition specifically in relation to medical procedure hormones, medical transition. Do you feel completely detached from transition or are there any ways in which you feel attached to transition?
Jojo Katsbulas
I definitely feel some form of attachment to, like, a social transition. Like, I am definitely more vocally, vocally loud about- about why I perceive myself as transgender and why other people should be allowed to perceive themselves as transgender. So, I definitely feel like I participated in a social transition.
But in that, I don’t believe that the outsider would perceive what I have gone through as a transition or even as a social transition [which is part of a transition at large]. So from the outside, like no. But from the inside, absolutely. And of course, it’s what’s on the inside that matters. But I think… I think that the idea of a social transition is less recognized in society and so it’s less- it’s more uncommon to be able to see a social transition in others.
Alyxandra Larson
I certainly think there are times when that’s true, absolutely. Especially when maybe someone’s presentation doesn’t change significantly from the way they were presenting prior to starting the social transition. So some of those more like invisible ways can definitely affect that too. Jojo, do you remember the first time that you encountered transness or like heard the term Trans?
Jojo Katsbulas
100%.
You know, I have asked this question to all the people we’ve interviewed so far and I have not actually thought about the first time that I’ve heard the term Trans. I think… that’s a lie. I – well, I haven’t, I haven’t thought about it but – I do know. I think the first time I ever actually heard the word transgender was, again, call back to you, was in Lady Gaga’s Born This Way, “lesbian, gay, transgender-ed life.”
At the time, I was a reverent and practicing Catholic, so I was not aware of what transgender meant. I think, in fact, I probably thought that that was a sexuality at the time because it was listed alongside, alongside lesbian and gay, which I did know to be sexualities. So, I think that’s the first time I probably actually heard the term transgender.
The first time I believe that I understood what transgender actually is, was probably in high school with a fellow classmate who is transgender. And I didn’t understand their experience at the time and I think their transition, and even if it wasn’t occurring at that time in all the ways that it has since, their transition allowed me to go home and research and find out what it actually means and why it’s not just a word in a Lady Gaga song.
Alyxandra Larson
As a reverent Catholic too, and with all of the things that were being coached to you at the time, I’m sure it was kind of a mindset of like, well, that’s what the other sinful devilish word So I’m not going to put any thought into that.
Jojo Katsbulas
Absolutely, definitely.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you have any other, like, early experiences with the Trans community? I know that – especially in school and getting to see the performance of a trans identity is huge – Is there any others that you’ve maybe experienced early on?
Jojo Katsbulas
Great question. I- not that I can think of off the top of my head, but if something pops into my mind, I’m happy to go back to this question.
Alyxandra Larson
I also would be curious, Jojo, even if they weren’t concretely Trans experiences at the time, can you think back to any Trans experiences that you had early on?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yes, definitely. Okay, yeah. A different friend from the friend that I had just mentioned who is in fact not a friend, just a peer in high school. A different person, was actually my girlfriend in the sixth grade and That was great. And then as we, we moved into middle school and high school, she had changed her name and she did not transition. She is not transgender. But she changed her name and I very vividly remember, kind of, like, questioning her a little bit throughout high school and in- in trying to understand why change your name if you’re not transgender? Or- or why wouldn’t you tell me that you’re transgender when you’re changing your name? Like I know what this means.
And number one, it was not my place to know what it means. And number two, she just wasn’t transgender. But I remember at that time thinking, this is what transgender people do. So this person must be that. And I’m so glad I’ve grown since then. But I do- That’s one of the earlier experiences I had with it.
In regards to myself, I think that girlfriend, along with her best friend, inspired me. They were very playful and experimental with their hair. And they definitely helped to inspire me to play with my hair and experiment with my hair as much as I could. And growing up in a conservative Catholic home, that wasn’t allowed. And so I didn’t actually change my hair until the second semester of junior year. And even then I bleached it for a couple of nights and then buzzed it. I didn’t truly start bleaching my hair or going- using color in my hair until the end of senior year… until I graduated. And I don’t, I don’t particularly see my hair as an indicator of my gender or my sexuality, but I do feel very inherently connected to my hair. And I think that that is a way that people, again, on the outside are able to recognize that I am queer, that I am odd, that I am different. Yeah.
Alyxandra Larson
Thank you. I love hearing you talk about your experience, especially with like early girlfriends from, like, that elementary school time and what I know of these people too. In the way that you were raised with it not being allowed in the home, did it kind of feel like you were living vicariously through these people that you were connected to?
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely not at the time. Sorry, my mic wasn’t on. Definitely not at the time, but like in retrospect, absolutely. I was living through all of my friends who at the time were all women and, like, all of these people, like, being able to live those freedoms that I was not. So yeah, definitely. Definitely. And the signs were there. That is so true.
Alyxandra Larson
The signs were there. As we kind of start to talk about family life, early childhood, could you tell me a little bit about what it was like growing up for you Jojo?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah, I… was a happy kid. I loved myself and I still do.
I am very academically-talented; I was always praised for that. I am musically talented, which I have always been praised for. I am like a caring person; People always loved how much I cared about my cousins and my friends and my family and my pets and this and that and the other. So, I had a very happy childhood in regards to, like, my own self fulfillment. In regards to, like, being able to express myself, that is definitely where I would say I was the most restricted and sad.
I- yeah, so I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic church every Sunday. And I vividly, vividly remember – if you’ve read my book or read my blog, this is in there – I vividly remember waking up before church and before church on Sundays as an elementary schooler, we had CCD, which taught us the Catholic catechism in preparation to get confirmed and receive the seven sacraments of the Catholic church. And I vividly, vividly, vividly remember waking up prior to CCD and all my family would still be asleep. And so, I would lay in bed with no phone, with no anything. Like I was reading picture books at the time. So, like, I didn’t have something to do. And I would wake up bright and early: 7:45-8AM and lay in bed until at least CCD had passed.
CCD started at a prompt 9:10 a.m. And I would lay in bed and wait until CCD had passed or if I was really, really lucky until church had passed. And so that from a very early age, I always knew, like, I felt a strong disconnect to the religion that was imposed upon me. And I think that’s definitely reflective in… how I see myself moving through the world now is now that since I spent so long, specifically every Sunday – truly by my own definition – wasting my own time, I now see my time as of like ultimate value and I choose to use my time only in ways that I see fit and enjoy.
Alyxandra Larson
That’s an awesome thing to become aware of as well, that discrepancy was there early on and that plays now into the way that you engage with the world as a whole. Just so that I can make sure that I’m understanding clearly and that our listeners understand clearly: So, you would wake up early before the rest of the family on Sundays for church and then lay there while the rest of the family slept with the intention of missing.
Jojo Katsbulas
That’s correct. Yes, of missing church. And occasionally, I was successful, and occasionally, I was not. But occasionally, I was successful, but it was just a tease; because if I was successful and then everyone woke up after church had begun or too late for us to get to church in time, whatever, there was still the chance that we were going to five o’clock mass, which was even worse because the priest was older and sometimes foreign and you couldn’t- it just made everything much more difficult to go to five o’clock mass. So, sometimes I truly won and we didn’t go, and sometimes I thought I won, and then I really lost because it made things worse.
Love when that happens. That might come up again.
Alyxandra Larson
I think it’s really fun to- to think about that specific anecdote as such a interesting way that you were still taking control of your time. I don’t know if you maybe see it that way, the maybe… resistance to-
Jojo Katsbulas
Deviance. Yeah. I definitely didn’t see it that way at the time and I definitely didn’t see it that way up until this very moment. But yeah, 100 %. I was- I was giving into my- my deviance towards the religion and- and honoring my own self, for sure.
Alyxandra Larson
In what other ways were you deviant towards the religion, or what was your relationship with your religion at that time?
Jojo Katsbulas
I really, really hated it. And not because it was like- like, at the time I didn’t necessarily know I was gay or know that I was not a man or a boy. At the time I- I hated it just because it was so fucking boring. I was bored out of my mind. I didn’t know what we were talking about. And when I did know what we were talking about the- the content – what we were talking about, the message of the Bible or the verse or the homily or communion or whatever it is – the message of it, was things I already knew about loving other people, about how you interact with other people. And so, I was always just very bored. And maybe that can be attributed to just, like, my heightened intelligence at the time, but I was just like, very bored of church in general.
So yeah, I think there are many, like, aspects of me that are very deviant when it comes to church. I’m not sure how many of our listeners have been to Catholic church, but when you get there, kneel, first you genuflect to get into the pew to show reverence towards the crucifixion at the front of the building with Jesus’s blood on him, which is very odd. Anyway, this is not about Catholicism…
I was very deviant. And so when you get there, after you get into your pew, you kneel down and you take some time to pray to God about whatever you want. It’s very individual. Everyone’s doing it, but it’s all on your own and in silence. And during that time, I would count. I would count to 20, I would count to 30, and then I sit back down. And I never prayed during that time ever. I just pretend about it because to me and at the time, I believed my connection to God to be something that’s inherent to me. It’s something that’s inside of me. And so, I didn’t need the church to facilitate that. I didn’t need the body and blood of Christ to facilitate that. I felt God’s presence within me and I could talk to God when I needed to. And so, I just, like, what, like, the whole idea of church was just never there for me. I think that’s very deviant to what it means to be Catholic.
Alyxandra Larson
Absolutely. Do you still feel that way today in regard to Catholicism?
Jojo Katsbulas
Towards Catholicism for sure. I think there’s- towards most organized religions, yes. I think there’s a little bit too much structure for… Sorry. I think there is a little bit too much structure with organized religion for me to fully ascribe to one. But yeah, I 100 % definitely feel God within me still – and not the God that I knew at that time, not the God that I was being- not the God that I was trying to learn about at that time, but – the same God that I felt back then exists within me now, if that makes sense.
Alyxandra Larson
You mentioned CCD classes, trying to outsmart the family to go to church or not go. So church was always a family affair then. How do you feel tied with your family? Tied to your family today.
Jojo Katsbulas
Mm-hmm, yes. I mostly don’t, at least not towards my parents. Pretty much wholly-disconnected from them. Pretty close with my siblings, love both of my sisters and my brother. My brother is definitely a little bit more on the conservative-religious side, but I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt for still being young. He just got into adulthood recently, so I will… I’ll give him a few years before I pass my judgment on him. But yeah, I love my siblings. I don’t feel connected to my parents at all.
They definitely don’t feel- they definitely don’t feel like parents to me, but more so: they don’t feel related to me. I think it’s difficult to see members of our family who are related to them act so differently from them. And it’s a complete mismatch from how me and my two sisters act. And so I just don’t feel, like, related or connected to my parents at all.
Alyxandra Larson
Were those same feelings present early on for you?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yes and no. There are definitely, like, phases in my life where I felt more connected to my mom or more connected to my dad. But like throughout, I would- I would definitely say, like, that idea of not liking- not feeling connected to my parents was there.
I definitely remember- I don’t remember, like, what the circumstance was specifically, but I remember my mom getting mad at me one time and, like, yelling at me and, like, sending me to my room. And I was too young to know how to spell and so I was, like, drawing at the time but I also knew letters a little bit and so, at the time, I took a sheet of paper from a notebook or something and I wrote “I X MOM” and then a little stick figure of mom with an X through it and that meant to say that “I hate her”… And then I got in more trouble because they found that later on. So like, I definitely knew early on that there’s an issue, there’s a lack of connection, there’s something going on there.
On the flip side, my father was not home. He worked nights until I was like 16, 17. So he was never, like, present in my life other than at, like, weekend soccer games or when he started coaching my basketball team in the sixth grade or whatever it may be. So like, I always- there was always, like, a little bit of resentment to him for that, but there were also times where, like, I- I was like happiest with my dad cause he would take me to the fantasy football draft or he would take me to his work, to his office. And those were times, like, I remember, like: this is so great. But I would say overall, like, the overarching feeling was that: I hate my mom and my dad is not here.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you think any of that is impacted by being in Kansas or even product of their raising and their experiences here, assuming that they’re also from here? ⁓
Jojo Katsbulas
I think definitely… We are all from here. The lack of my dad in my childhood is informed by being in Kansas, but more specifically by my mom being Latina. Because when it comes to my Mexican side of the family…
It’s hard to parse because, like, the Mexican side of our family is very stereotypical in the way that they’re going to get the job done and provide for their family, but they are also stereotypical in the way that their family will never miss out on the opportunity to be with their family. And so, there was definitely a disconnect there between like ‘Well, if this is true of my mom’s side and this is the side of the family that I’m closer to, et cetera, et cetera, why is my dad not here? Why is this not happening?’
And so, I don’t necessarily- I don’t know that that’s in relation to Kansas, but it- it- it feels of relation to home. And I do consider Kansas home, so that- that feels very that to me.
Alyxandra Larson
I think it’s interesting that you bring up specifically the experience from a Latina perspective. Especially when we talk about Kansas and your proximity to Topeka and feeling like you grew up in Topeka. My family is Mexican-Spanish, and we all came to that Topeka region. And there’s a fairly big community.
Jojo Katsbulas
Many.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you feel like that was pretty impactful on-
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely. I think both in just, like the history of our family, like it was always talked about the Gonzales’s and the Pimentel’s like immigrating to Kansas specifically and to Topeka specifically. My Tata – my grandpa – was a, like, large member of the community, in the Latino community for creating opportunity for other- other immigrants. He lived in what’s called the bottoms in Topeka I’m not actually for sure where that is or what that means, but I always heard that growing up and we- my family before me had lived in Oakland, which is the Latina sub-district of Topeka if you will and my-
Alyxandra Larson
That’s home.
Jojo Katsbulas
My family had lived there previously and that is also where my church was. And my church that we went to was a white church. However, when there was a special ceremony – whether it’s a wedding or a funeral or something else within the family – that was typically held at Our Lady of Guadalupe, which was also in Oakland. And Our Lady of Guadalupe has a very, very, very communal feel to it. And they definitely embraced that, like, that Mexican culture and the Mexican tradition of showing up for each other. So, I definitely think that informed a lot of my understanding of family, and of community, and how people- how I believe people should interact with others.
Alyxandra Larson
Considering that communal mentality and heavy focus on community from Mexican heritage perspective – you describe it as showing up for or being there for family and for each other – did you feel like during your time in that community people were showing up for you in the ways that you needed?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah. I think my Latina side was more apt to show up at the things that I wanted them to show up at. That being said, there wasn’t a lot in, like, my childhood that I specifically wanted community to be a part of. I probably wouldn’t say until high school, I started experiencing that like desire for- for the attention of others. But yeah.
Alyxandra Larson
As you started to find that interest in connection in your high school years, do you feel like that’s when you started to meet some of the important people in your life?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yes and no. I think I’ve met important people throughout my life. I think I am somehow very privileged in that way. I always remember my older sister telling me that after she had graduated, you know, like, she stopped talking to most of her friends from high school and they just grew apart and then nothing happened. You just like, you know, the friends that you had made in elementary and middle school and high school would not always be your friends. And I have not had that experience in the slightest.
My- one of my first friends from elementary school is still someone I talk to nearly every day, even though currently she lives out of the country. More of, like, my best friends nowadays, one of them, again, lives across the country on the West Coast; still talk to her everyday. And then in middle school, I found, like, my core group of friends through theater and through SEEK – which is the gifted education program in middle school at our middle school. And so I found a lot of my closest friends through those things and they’ve always stuck around. I- the core group of friends that I made through theater is still like a lively group chat. Like, we’re still talking in that every single day. And so, I wouldn’t say that I made those connections to the people who are most important to me at one specific time, that I continually continue to make them.
Alyxandra Larson
With those people or some of those people being super far from you geographically now, what ways do you find yourself being involved in community today since that’s something that is important to you?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah. I think what I’m doing currently, the Kansas Trans Oral History Project, is a way that I find community. And I believe I also find community through my writing, which has been very interesting to me.
I find that I don’t so much experience community in the ways that- that most people would- would. I don’t- I don’t participate in a team or a sports team. I don’t you know, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t go out and party. But I find myself in environments that foster that feeling of, like, welcomeness and safety that I desire.
And so, like, I find myself experiencing community in the form of music, whether that’s, like, online through like Stan-Culture, I really find myself experiencing community a lot in that way and just like supporting the artists that I love, and in concerts, obviously. And yeah, I find myself experiencing community in super unique ways rather than maybe what’s traditional.
Alyxandra Larson
It sounds like a lot of it’s centered in more of that art/freedom-of-expression type of space. When you talk about concerts or music in a digital sphere, you get to create a little bit of that. Do you find that that is at all related to what’s available for you in the sense of maybe physical community where you are today?
Jojo Katsbulas
I don’t think so because like in regards to theater, I think theater is where I found a lot of community previously in high school and stuff. That’s definitely an option to me still today. I have friends who participate in theater. I still go see theater shows. I’m just not involved in acting and performing or tech-ing for it. But I don’t feel that same community feeling from going and watching a show.
But I similarly, like, I think that the avenues do exist where I’m at currently. I don’t like to party, so I don’t. But when I go out to the bars, I do feel that, like, welcoming space and feel that connection with my friends in the group that I’m out with. But it’s just not necessarily what I’m seeking. But I do think they, at least here in Lawrence specifically, I do think those avenues exist.
Alyxandra Larson
I think they’re certainly growing, especially Lawrence, Topeka, Kansas City. past what they maybe were previously
Jojo Katsbulas
100 %
Alyxandra Larson
In that regard, do you find yourself, even through this oral history project, your writing, do you find yourself in community with a significant number of trans or non-binary people?
Jojo Katsbulas
I would say, definitely more non-binary people than trans people. There have been a lot of times where I have explained my gender to perhaps a sexual partner or a romantic partner or a friend, and my- my explanation of it has opened up a door for them to feel comfortable in sharing with me that they are also of that experience. And so a lot of the time it’s, it’s more so that I am friends with people that are of these various identities that I didn’t know they occupied prior to my own sharing of myself being a part of that identity. But that being said, I specifically experience that a lot more with non-binary people than Trans people. I think I just don’t have very many Trans friends, but I welcome them.
Alyxandra Larson
Same! If you’re Trans and you need a friend!
So, you talked about – with your transness, with your gender identity – that you don’t feel a super strong connection to transition. Socially, you think transition’s been an important part for you. That’s where it aligns for you. Do you think that any… people or communities have been especially important as you’ve processed that social transition?
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely. People: definitely you, for sure. Just being able to discuss my feelings and my thoughts and also…Yeah, my feelings and my thoughts and just having that avenue for open communication.
I think I have quite a few friends that I have experienced that with, of being able to just chat openly without judgment. On a larger scale, I don’t believe I’ve been affected as much by an organization, if you will, or an institution. However, those – an organization or an institution – I do think is an avenue that I have used to find connections that are of high importance to me. And specifically here, I’m talking about the institutionalization of academia, which is something I could go on about for hours, and I won’t. But I went to the University of Kansas and through going to the University of Kansas and receiving my degrees, I not only met a bunch of friends and people who understood me, but I was also met with mentors who truly opened up my eyes and my brain beyond what I could fathom. I think I was, prior to college, very – prior to like my junior year – very like stuck in what I was told things could be; whether that’s my gender or whether that’s my education or the color of the Gatorade that I choose. Like I was very comfortable and happy to go along with what I knew to be- with what I knew things to be defined as. And through college, I did a lot of work with language and a big thing in language and linguistic anthropology is that the use- the definitions of words are created by their use. The definitions are created by use, and that applies to everything:
My gender is only decided upon by how I perceive and experience and present my gender. My education is only bound by the restrictions that I put on it. I am able to learn in new ways, in ways that are not academically supported institutionally, like the university would not support a specific avenue of learning. And I am in support of that avenue of learning, if that makes sense. I don’t find myself sticking to the bounds of what is possible anymore because it’s all possible.
Alyxandra Larson
I think that’s really interesting, especially given your positioning of the way that you value your time and the way that you control your narratives that when it came to academia, that was a place that, kind of, actually opened up your ability maybe for allowing that self-expression and making those choices on your own to do what was ultimately best for you.
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely. I like I shit on academia quite a bit. Like, I shit on the university being the only avenue or college or trade school, whatever you say, whatever you may do, being the only avenue for that higher education. And it is 100 % the catalyst for what was able to expand my thinking, which I do appreciate. In addition to the people that were within that institution. Let me make that clear. It is not the institution itself that opened up that door. It is the people in that institution. Thank you.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you think that as a Kansan attending university in Lawrence, that had any significant impact on those relationships that you made?
Jojo Katsbulas
You know, probably. And that is not something I would like to continue discussing. But yes.
Alyxandra Larson
You talk about your experiences with academia helping to allow you to expand your mind. What sort of successes do you feel like you’ve experienced as a result of that mind expansion?
Jojo Katsbulas
I can tell you.
So, what has been most impactful to me is being given the affirmation that I can do what I see is not possible. I- specifically here I’m talking about my undergraduate capstone. It’s a two part course where the first semester of your senior year you propose an idea and then the second- an idea of research, and the second semester you conduct that research.
In my first semester I was set, I proposed and got approved to research the inclusion of gay, lesbian, and trans education in state universities in Kansas. And I got into my second semester and our professor, Dr. Jeanne Vacarro let us know – didn’t let us know – but had us do a thing in class – an experience, if you will… I don’t know what word I’m thinking of. And she had us each speak on our project and what we were going to be researching. And then once we had spoken, we had to go up to the front of the room, to the whiteboard, and write up on the whiteboard one singular word that we felt described our project. And if our word was already up there, we would put an additional tally next to that.
And so my class was super small, like 13 people or something. And we each spoke about our projects and then we each went up there and the first person that went up there wrote the word boring. And then the entire class went up there and put their tally mark next to the word boring. And then we talked about why our projects were so boring. And there is a reason why our projects were so boring that I won’t go into here, but Jeanne gave us the option to edit our proposal, to adjust our proposal as we see fit, to change minor things, to change major things, to restart, to do whatever.
And that really felt good to me; I was like, ‘okay, I do feel like my project is boring and I would like to do something better.’ And so I spoke with Jeanne and I spoke with our TA, Arlowe Clementine, and just like what ideas they had. And the ideas that they had were not actually ideas, but they were questions for me that- that guided me to think bigger; to not box myself in. And I came up with the idea to study queer identity formation in relation to music and nightlife and our environments that we occupy, with three to four months to conduct and propose and complete the research and then present it. And that project, like, gave me the most passion in the world. I completed it and I think the way in which I completed it was well done and one of the methods that I used – sorry, super academic here, I told you at the beginning, I’m very, very intellectual-academic minded, sorry – but the method that I chose to research was number one: interviews. I interviewed local participants here in Lawrence, local queer people. And in addition to that, another method that I used was autoethnography, which is the use of one’s self-experience, one’s own standpoint as a valid piece of evidence. So the use of autoethnography is not academically supported, it is not a valid method of research, it is not supported in that way. But it was supported by Jeanne, And it was supported by Arlowe, and since I was also interviewing people, it was supported by the institution.
And I conducted that project and used my own experience in the final project. And I, alongside one of my peers, Miles, won the best senior capstone award. And that was amazing and showed me that not only can I expand my mind and expand what I think is possible, but that I can be celebrated for it. And I can be not only accepted, but celebrated. So yeah, that was a huge thing for me to catapult myself into the mindset that I’m in now. Being able to… view the expansiveness of life, of each aspect of life.
Alyxandra Larson
That experience really sounds like it captures the entirety of your-
Jojo Katsbulas
It’s me. Yeah, I- yeah. I sometimes, I do go back and read my capstone. Sorry, guys. Guess who hasn’t read my book? It’s me. I have never sat down and read my book ever. Not once. You know what? I’ve opened the first page and read that: ‘dedicated to my younger self, Jojo. I am so proud of you.’ I know that one; The rest of the book, no fucking idea what I said in there – Not actually true, I know exactly what I said, but I’ve never read it – and I have read my capstone paper, which is at the back of my book, so many times. So many times. I just go back to it. It’s so disgustingly lovely. And it’s, it’s like, I feel my soul in that project. So I definitely- I appreciate you saying that. Like it- it- it feels like me.
Alyxandra Larson
Yeah. Outside of that project and your authorship and your intellect, what are the most important parts of your identity to you?
Jojo Katsbulas
I think the most important parts of my identity… I think ultimately the most important part of my identity is my honesty; is my bluntness; is my like willingness to say how I feel, regardless of how that affects others because if I’m not standing up for myself, I won’t stand up for anyone else. And what I would like to do is stand up for others, and so I have to stand up for myself. So I think my honesty is my biggest part of my identity. In addition to that, I think important parts of my identity are that I’m like a caring person. I do genuinely care about others, even though lots of people may not think that, I do. I think I’m caring and loving and. Yeah, like, aside from academia, like, and intellect, like, those are the big things, but I would say, like, big three is honesty, love, and my intellect. I truly value and hold close to me how I think and how I go through thinking things.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you think there have been any specific influences that have caused you to value that big three so heavily as part of your identity?
Jojo Katsbulas
I think definitely. I think with- – in regards to, like, intellect and academia – that was something that’s always, like, just come very naturally to me. And so having that, like, natural praise from an early age has just, like, continued to make that a value of mine and a value that I see in myself and my identity. In regards to being, like, loving and caring, I undoubtedly think that that comes from my Nanny and Tata.
I always, always, always- like, I can hear them saying now, like, how caring I was back then and how, – my God, I’m not gonna cry. How much, like, the babies in my family, like, even as like, I was, like, eight or nine years old and I would, like- I love to hold babies and the babies in my family, like, loved to, like, hang out with me and be held by me and so that’s, like, something I hear from them, like with my cousins or family or whatever it may be.
But similarly, I hear that a lot when it comes to animals – whether it’s, you know, a friend’s animal or someone’s animal that I’m dog sitting, or an animal on the street, whatever – if I pass by an animal or if I interact with an animal, the way that people will comment on how I interact with that being, it emphasizes that value of care and how caring I am and how much that animal trusts and feels supported by me. And so I think that really informs that part of my identity.
But the last thing, the honesty, I don’t know where that comes from because I love to lie and I don’t do it often, but I love to lie. So it’s like- and maybe that- that specifically is what it comes from is: that my parents are both manipulators and abusers and they lie. And so they lie, but in malice. Typically when I lie, I’m lying for jest. I’m lying for fun. I’m lying for the joke of it all. It’s never- it’s never for the intent of hurting someone. And on a very rare occasion does my, does a lie of mine hurt someone without my intent. So I think like that part of my identity is informed by me wanting to do what I want and wanting to have fun and feel that freedom that we talked about earlier. I think my honesty is informed by my reluctance of lying and employing lying only as a positive, you know?
Alyxandra Larson
All of those threads of your identity; how do they or don’t they tie into your relationship with your gender identity?
Jojo Katsbulas
I definitely think the honesty does. And just like being honest with myself and honest with others about how I view and see myself moving through the world. Definitely with honesty.
Intellect and academia, I mean, I do have my degree in women, gender and sexuality studies, but I don’t think that necessarily informs my gender specifically, other than that, I am simply more aware of what can exist than I was previously.
What’s my other big three? I love and I care. Yeah, I think that definitely informs my gender just in the sense that like I- I don’t love everybody, but I love almost everybody and I can care about almost everybody. That definitely informs my gender because I love who I am and I love who other people are regardless of their gender. I don’t care what gender I am because I love me regardless. I don’t care what gender you are because I love you regardless. I don’t care what gender my husband is because I love him regardless. Same for my siblings and this and that and the other. To me, gender is not… an important qualifier for loving someone. And so, I think that definitely impacts my ability to love myself and love myself as my true gender.
Did that makes sense? I hope any of this is making sense. Sorry that I just word-vomit all the time.
Alyxandra Larson
You’re making sense. Do you feel like there are any other aspects of your identity that have impacted your experience with your gender specifically?
Jojo Katsbulas
This maybe doesn’t really impact it, but I do remember one time – I think I maybe told you about this when I was a child – I remember like so vividly looking in the mirror and looking in the mirror and like very closely, like, like face to glass and being like, my eyelashes are so woman. My eyelashes are women’s eyelashes, I look like I’m wearing fake lashes, I look like I’m wearing mascara, I look feminine, I look womanly, I look – Like my eyelashes specifically, not my eyes, but my eyelashes were giving me so much woman that it like struck me. Like I truly think – I have no idea what age I was back then – but that, like, could have been the first time I ever thought about my gender, you know?
So that definitely strikes me as something, but yeah. Thank you.
Alyxandra Larson
As I grew up I was constantly told about my beautiful long feminine lashes. I think- I don’t know if you experienced this, but I used to get told like, it’s so unfair that you have such long beautiful eyelashes and you’re a boy.
Jojo Katsbulas
Now, I’ve not experienced that myself, but my brother-in-law, his family is very-well-known for their voluptuous eyelashes. And, in fact, when my brother-in-law came into the family, we called him Snuffalufagus because of his eyelashes. But my sister and my brother-in-law’s children, both assigned male at birth and still identifying as male at this time, are- have eyelashes that are longer than mine. And number one, if I was their age, I would really be experiencing some gender dysphoria. But number two, yes, I have heard people say that, those exact words to them. Like, I’m so jealous of your eyelashes, you have such long lashes. Yeah, not to me though.
Alyxandra Larson
It’s crazy what a lash can do.
Jojo Katsbulas
It really is, just bat a lash.
Another thing that I wanted to say in regards to experiences of my gender that pop up to me is when I came out as gay – and I think this is a very common experience of people who are assigned male at birth that come out as gay – is that when I came out as gay, specifically when I was outed as gay, my parents asked me if I wanted to be a girl. And like, I can- I can, like, validate how they, how they got there; Like I can understand their slippery slope.
But like, not at all. Not at all then did I want to be a girl, not at all now do I want to be a girl, and not at all is that relevant. Like, I’m telling you that I like men, please don’t ask me about my gender; that’s another thing I’m trying to figure out… Haven’t gotten there yet.
Alyxandra Larson
As a recovering gay man I can tell you it really is a slippery slope.
Jojo Katsbulas
Very slippery slope, very slippery slope.
Alyxandra Larson
Jojo, I just want to switch gears a little bit. Could you tell me about your proudest moment?
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely… I think I have a lot of them… Especially these days… And I don’t know that I’ve ever thought about which one specifically I would consider as my proudest moment.
And perhaps there’s one that I can’t yet disclose that I can disclose later this year if you’re tuned into sensitivedudeproductions.com. snstvdude.com, Sensitive Dude Productions, if you Google it. I think that’s true. That one thing that I can’t say is my proudest moment. But if I had to say one that I could say.
Oh my god, I know. I think my proudest moment is… being… emboldened, embrazened, feeling empowered to go get married last year. I think that has been my proudest moment to… Okay, let me explain this again for the non-readers. I met my husband in June of last year and we started dating in July and, like, hardly ever separated; He was spending every night in my place. And then we started working together. And amidst all of that, there was an upcoming election and Donald Trump was up for election. And we made the decision to… we had the conversation that if- our votes if – because we were not voting for him, let’s make that clear, we were voting for Harris – and if our votes did not win that election, that we would get engaged and married before Donald Trump took office.
And so last year on election day, we sat in bed the whole day and watched the election results come in. And then we went to sleep and we went to sleep and the election results were not in. So we went to sleep not knowing. And I remember waking up very early in the morning and it had been decided that our votes did not choose the winner. And so very quickly, Jordan left our home and went to a different city and then came back and he didn’t tell me what he was doing, but he came back. And then later that day, he proposed to me with his grandmother’s ring.
That weekend, we were traveling to Las Vegas – that following weekend, we were traveling to Las Vegas for one of my cousin’s weddings. And since we had just gotten engaged and Donald Trump was imminently going to become our next president, we booked a chapel in Las Vegas at the WestGate and got married.
And I think- I- like, there’s not a single circumstance before July of last year that you could have asked me if that was something I would ever do, and I would always say no. There was- there’s not a chance that I’m not only marrying someone that I don’t know that well – not that I don’t know that well, but I haven’t known that long, but – also getting married in Vegas with none of our family or friends there with this and that in spite of Donald Trump. Like all of these things are not things that I had planned or wanted, but it’s undoubtedly my proudest moment.
I feel so happy that I was emboldened and able to do those things. Sorry, that was so long winded. I just love love. Can’t you tell?
Alyxandra Larson
Yeah, I think it’s really fun too because I- I of course remember quite a bit of that; I got to be present for some of those moments, and it’s interesting to me that you think that it wouldn’t have been something that maybe you before July would ever do. I concur, that never would have maybe wanted or been able to envision. But it’s funny now, looking back, and how much it aligns with especially what we’ve been talking about today. I think that that’s just a super high expression of everything you’ve discussed so far. So I can see why that’s a very proud moment for you right now.
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah, the freedom to just do what I need to do. Yeah.
Alyxandra Larson
Yeah. Okay, inversely, not to be a downer, but what’s been your most challenging moment?
Jojo Katsbulas
My most challenging moment was undoubtedly being outed. And not for the reasons you may think…
When I was outed, it was entirely blamed upon my cousin. And it was… I have lots of cousins, I have a very big Catholic family, so I have like 50 cousins or something. And specifically this was blamed on the cousin that I was closest to at that time, who did, in fact, know that I was gay.
For years, I was told that, maybe like two years, I was told that it was my cousin who had outed me, who had caused this disruption and this chaos in my life. And I believed that and I stood on that and I stopped talking to that cousin. Like I asked my friends to, like, limit their interactions with that cousin because we all went to the same school, et cetera. And I later found out that it in fact had nothing to do with my cousin. It was one of my aunts that had told my parents and that aunt was not even the mother of that cousin. So not only was that very challenging at the time to feel those feelings towards this cousin that I- I had loved so much, felt honestly very betrayed. And so it was very challenging then.
More so now, I would say I’m still dealing with this challenge because… Not only is there like… I feel like there’s perchance like a part of that relationship between me and my cousin that may never be repaired, but more so it’s challenging for me now not to… I cannot think of a word choice that is not inappropriate for this platform…
It is challenging for me to not vocalize how incredibly distasteful that is and disrespectful and immature and inappropriate it is to not only talk of a child’s but to then as the mature adult use a child as a scapegoat in that situation. And so it’s very challenging for me still to not vocalize that and vocalize that, and by that I mean vocalize it in a way that is appropriate as I have struggled to do now towards that aunt specifically. So yes, I would say that that’s my most challenging moment.
Alyxandra Larson
Do you have any comments on your experience with things like safety or security?
Jojo Katsbulas
Not for me personally, but it has tangentially affected me in many multiple ways. When my husband and I got together, very vividly remember going on our first date, I remember our first outing towards, our first outing where we went to a restaurant and my husband had never been to a restaurant and sat down and ate alone with another man that is his age that could be perceived as a date or a something else. And so he was very concerned for our safety and our security in that space, even though I wasn’t.
Similarly, the times that I’ve gone to Lollapalooza, specifically, perchance maybe with you, there is that concern for: I’m not scared of my own safety, but I’m scared for the safety of my group, my party. And… and it’s… not a welcome thought to have to prepare for what you may have to do or act like in a situation where you are not safe or secure. So I’ve definitely, like, experienced that tangentially, but not in direct relation to myself.
Alyxandra Larson
It absolutely aligns to, in my eyes, with part of your big three being the way in which you love and care for others. That your experience with safety and security is primarily tangential because you present in a way that allows you to maybe take on that role sometimes.
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah. Definitely. Yeah, it’s cosmic.
Alyxandra Larson
What about any specific thoughts on insecurity when it comes to finance or housing or food scarcity?
Jojo Katsbulas
Definitely. In terms of… What’s the middle one? Housing, food insecurity, and finance. Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, definitely experienced all of those. Not. Yeah, so. I again have been very privileged and very lucky In my own knowledge of myself and I always knew that my parents were not going to support me once they knew that I was gay or of a variant gender which I still don’t know that they know that I am any they wouldn’t believe me if I told them I’m anything other than a man so it anyway.
I have been privileged to recognize that very early on and so I’ve always- I, since I turned 16, I got a job and I worked and I saved and built my credit and have credit cards and this, that, and the other. so I’ve always been very aware of my finances and how I need to prepare myself to be able to support myself. That’s definitely benefited me to be able to be where I am today. Am I financially secure? No. But do I know that I’ve built this for myself? I do.
And the same goes for, for the other two categories with home and with food. It’s- it’s something that I’ve always prepared for. I’ve always known I may not get the nicest, fanciest home that I want because that’s not realistic for me at this point. But I know that the home that I will have at any given point will be a home that suffices and works for me and my needs, because I’ve been able to build that security blanket for myself.
And similarly with food, I’m very picky, I would say, even though I’ll eat like anything, but I’m very picky. And so, like, I would prefer to have Taco Bell for every single meal. And sometimes it is financially realistic to have Taco Bell for every single meal.
Alyxandra Larson
Depends on how you plan.
Jojo Katsbulas
Exactly; depends on how you plan. And I am very aware of how much food is in my cabinet and in my fridge and how much money is in my bank account to be able to go buy food or buy Taco Bell or whatever it is. So yeah, those are things that are always on my mind because I know that I don’t have the backup. I have support, have family and friends who will support me if I needed to, but I… have created the foundation for myself to be able to support myself in that way.
Alyxandra Larson
What about, JoJo, any comments on mental or physical health or addiction? Any experiences you’ve had with those?
Jojo Katsbulas
Mental health, I think. So I was diagnosed with- I was diagnosed with severe anxiety disorder and major depressive disorder in high school. I was 16 or 17. And I do think I interact with anxiety a bit these days, mostly in regards to my finances. I would say I don’t experience much other anxiety these days.
Depression is a completely different story. I think I was either misdiagnosed or I think there is a sect of depression that exists and is not as much talked about – which I think the latter to be more true for my own situation. I was diagnosed with major depressive disorder and virtually immediately after moving out of my parents’ home I have not felt those feelings of doom and despair and disregard for everything. So I believe I experienced situational depression in that being in an abusive home in a constricting, restricting environment is the cause for that diagnosis. Because after leaving that environment, that situation, I do believe it has… adjusted itself and I- I do know what I experienced previously to be some form of depression, which enables me now to know that I no longer experience that. So yeah, that’s definitely with mental health.
No comments on physical health really. I feel like I’m pretty physically the same as I’ve always been and then addiction… I don’t necessarily have any like actual thought out comments to make, but I do think the introduction of a vice into Queer and Trans communities – whether that’s gender or sexuality, etc, etc – I think there’s an influx of- of queer people who have an addiction to something or another, and I think more research needs to be done into that. But that’s my only comment on addiction, really.
Alyxandra Larson
Jojo I just want to take a second to thank you for going through this interview and process with us. We are approaching the end, so I just want to check in before I ask the few final questions. Is there anything that I’ve maybe not asked that you’d like to speak on?
Jojo Katsbulas
Oh gosh. I was asked this question in an interview the other day and I said, no, thank you. But then on my drive home, I remembered something that I wish I would have spoken on and I’m having that same feeling. I know there’s something I want to speak on, but I don’t know at this point. I’ll put it in the notes if I remember.
Alyxandra Larson
Is there anyone in particular, any sources of support, organizations, what have you, that you’d like to specifically call out and recognize?
Jojo Katsbulas
Yeah, this is gonna be like the end of that one blog post I made where I said, thank you to everybody. So get ready. This is me accepting my Grammys. Which I was also voted most likely to win a Grammy in high school. Thank you. So here are the people I’d like to thank.
Number one, first and foremost, my sister, Serena, not only mothered me, but saved my life a couple times.
I would also like to thank my other sister, Katelyn love you, Katelyn, as well as my nanny and Tata, because my nanny and Tata provided a second space for me and for my siblings outside of my family’s home. And I truly believe that they recognized the need for that second space.
In addition to those key family members, I would also like to thank and recognize many members of my chosen family, including but not limited to:
Alyx Larson, Morgan Boyer, Nikky Bloomquist, Amy Hernandez, Sam Hubbell, Jordan Katsbulas, Deavynnn Schlesener, Christopher Malaby, Jeanne Vaccaro, and Arlowe Clementine, and so, so, so, so many others; Peyton White and Kayla Wilson and Oliver Jane. And I do have to thank the Graber family as a unit, as well as the White family as a unit, as well as my cousin Clare and my cousin Sagan, and honestly, my cousin Jordan as well.
Miley Cyrus. I would definitely like to thank Miley Cyrus. And I would also like to thank Miley Cyrus for creating the Happy Hippie Foundation, which is an LGBTQ+ homeless shelter for youth in Los Angeles. And ever since she created that foundation in 2014-2015, I thought that that was so cool. And I could- I could not count on my two hands the number of times that I’ve emailed Happy Hippie and asked them how I can volunteer and or intern and or get a career with them. And so I’d like to thank them for… for showing me that that’s something that’s possible and that that could potentially be a future career for me someday.
So those are big people I would like to thank. Organizations I would like to thank. In addition to the Happy Hippie Foundation, is also the Trevor Project; Though I’ve never used them, I do know the incredibly high value of the work that they do. I would like to also thank the HRC for sending me a free sticker in 2018 that I put on the back of my car that my mom ripped off because it was an equals sign. So I’d like to thank them for taking the time to send me that sticker and pay the postage for it. Additionally, I would like to thank the Replay Lounge and the University of Kansas and so many others.
And I’d like to thank myself. Yeah, I think I’d really like to thank myself; I did a lot of fucking work.
So those are the people and organizations I’d like to thank.
Alyxandra Larson
I think it’s beautiful how many people and organizations you have to show love and recognition to, but most importantly, the love and recognition to yourself.
Jojo Katsbulas
Issa priority.
Alyxandra Larson
Jojo, can you tell me a time when you felt seen?
Jojo Katsbulas
Oh my god, yes.
So I was outed on September 28th, 2018 maybe? Yeah, 2018. The week after, I was outed on a Thursday. The week after was gonna be homecoming week and so the following day they were gonna announce the homecoming King and Queen nominations. And so I was outed and then I went to school the next day and then the next day I got announced as one of the nominations for Homecoming King. Yay! I didn’t win. Anyway.
And then, you know, like that day and also like the entire following week and following few months, like all I wanted to do was not be alive. And so it was really, really difficult for me. Anyway, Homecoming happened the following Friday and as a part of the Homecoming royalty crew, we would walk down the football field during- before the football game and be announced and be talked about, etc, etc.
And I just have the most amazing friends and family in the whole world. And by family, I mean chosen family, not my mom and dad. Thank you. I have the most amazing friends and chosen family who saw what was going on in my life and who knew about what was going on in my life and took it upon themselves to visit the Equality House in Topeka and borrow or rent, I’m not sure if they paid, a bunch of mini pride flags and large pride flags and they all either snuck them into the football game, I don’t know if it was allowed, I don’t know really what happened, but they brought all these pride flags to the football game. And when they announced me as one of the nominations, as we were walking down the field, the student section, or at least the senior portion of the student section, held up pride flags as they, like, cheered for me. And as I was being walked down, the football field linking arms with my homophobic and abusive father and my homophobic and abusive mother, as well as my loving and gracious nanny and my loving and gracious sister and my younger siblings.
So, that moment for me; It was like looking in a mirror, you know? Felt real seen. By people who had always made fun of me for the way I talk or the way I value my intellect or whatever. So to see them all holding up pride flags in support of me and in support of me through what I was going through was ultimate for me.
Alyxandra Larson
That’s really amazing. Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Now if our sweet listeners have listened to my oral history yet, they know that you twisted the last question a little bit. And as such, I am willing to twist it a little bit for you.
Jojo Katsbulas
I don’t remember how I twisted it, but I’ll let it slide.
Alyxandra Larson
To close today, Jojo, if this next one sentence could be heard and delivered directly to the ears of one Miley Cyrus; What would you have to say?
Jojo Katsbulas
You can’t see it because this is an audio format, but I just took a pondering gaze up at my largest poster of Miley Cyrus sitting directly across from me. So what I would say to her is…What I would say to her is…
Thank you for… allowing an entire generation of youth, both queer and not queer, and trans and not trans, to see how dichotomy can work… and how beneficial it may be to receive the Best of Both Worlds.
Alyxandra Larson
I love that. Thank you. Any final words, anything you’d like to say?
Jojo Katsbulas
No, thank you for listening and love everyone and treat everyone with respect and kindness unless they are not loving and kind and respectful to you.
Alyxandra Larson
Thank you so much, JoJo, and thank you for tuning in to the Kansas Trans-Oral History Project. I’ve been Alexandra Larson and we hope you have a wonderful rest of your time!