Jojo Katsbulas
Hi, my name is Jojo Katsbulas and I am here with Leeds Dunleavy for the Kansas Trans Oral History Project. Leeds, could you please tell me your age and pronouns as you prefer them?
Leeds Dunleavy
Hi, I am 25 years old and I use they and she pronouns.
Jojo
And how would you describe your gender, Leeds?
Leeds
I am a transfem non-binary individual by sort of larger metrics, but by how I choose to exist in the world: I am a Dyke Fag.
Jojo
Okay, and how does the label transfem work in your life and associate with how you identify yourself?
Leeds
That’s a great question, Jojo. For me, the transfem label exists in that I am adjacent to womanhood. It’s like the, if you know, like, ‘the sicko’s meme’, where it’s like, ‘ehhhh.’
Jojo
I… Okay, yes I do, I do.
Leeds
Me with, like… the binary feminine identity. So… I’m not woman. I’m not binary. I don’t associate with man – the binary, at all. Somewhere in between is like, yeah, let’s say there’s two houses. There is the house of man and then there’s the house of woman and there’s like a yard between them. Catch me like doing the splits on the fence, like a la like the Garfield comics, just sort of doing my like standup routine.
Jojo
And are you splitting the fence with your legs going laterally to where the fence is, is kind of splitting you down the middle? Or are you splitting on the fence going along with the fence, kind of riding the true line of the fence?
Leeds
Yeah I’m riding the true line of the fence. I’m- I’m on that barrier.
Jojo
You’re on that barrier. Cool. Using your terminology, you also used Dyke Fag as one of your labels. Can you explain how you associate with that?
Leeds
Yeah, so I am a faggot as a homosexual as… someone who exists in defiance of the idea of a man loving a woman. That is how I am a faggot… is I… have some… some like anti-hetero shenanigans. Let’s say ‘anti-hetero’ because everyone is loved, is valid, everyone is real. It is the concept of heterosexuality doesn’t go with me; it oils my water. I am a dyke and I love women. I love at least one woman, my partner, and I… I find comfort in a physical presentation that is adjacent to or reminiscent of a butch presentation.
Jojo
And do you believe when, you’re using the label dyke fag, is dyke describing fag or is dyke describing you? Are dyke and fag both describing you or is dyke describing fag?
Leeds
Dyke describing fag. A fag to be perceived as a dyke because that is how she acts, that is how she exists.
Jojo
I understand. So now that we’ve got your gender on the table, can you tell me about when and where you were born?
Leeds
I was born at 5:56 a.m. November 7th, 1999 in Ashland, Oregon at the hospital. I was at Ashland General or Ashland Community Hospital up on the west side of town going up the slope a little bit. Ashland is a small community on I-5 in southern Oregon, 15 minutes from the border with California. It is a sort of liberal hippie bubble.
Jojo
And you were born on November 7th, which makes you a Scorpio. Do you identify with that at all? With astrology in general or with the label of Scorpio?
Leeds
Yes. The label of Scorpio – I will never pretend to parse astrology besides what I’m told about it. I know I’m at least two Scorpios, possibly three… I’d have to re-input it and look it back up but I thought it was cool that I was a triple Scorpio which may or may not be true but I would like to believe it.
Jojo
For sure. I am also a Scorpio. Does that inform your identity at all or is that just kind of a tangential thing in your life?
Leeds
It’s tangential; It exists along the side.
Jojo
I got you. So you talk about how Ashland was kind of a hippie bubble out in Oregon. Do you remember ever hearing the term trans out there or do you remember your first time hearing trans?
Leeds
I do not recall my first time hearing the term trans. My mother was a part of a women’s choir there. That’s primarily like lesbians in the 50s and 60s nowadays. Women with wings. Go team. And there’s a song that goes along, like, ‘you can love whoever you want.’ And there’s some… probably the head and awareness of homosexuality. But in terms of… transition and transness I think my awareness would have come later through the web.
Jojo
Do you have any recollection of experiencing homosexuality out in Ashland or your first time kind of being a part of that community at all out there?
Leeds
Yeah, so when I was a small child, on, so, probably like 10-ish, somewhere around there. Memory isn’t great. Wednesday nights, my mom would take me and my younger sister to choir practice with her so she wouldn’t have to do a babysitter. This is a women’s choir and it is by and large lesbians. that community that… that queer community. I don’t want to use the word sapphic because it feels like it softens how real these communities… like these are real people, it’s not like this. You know, it’s rough and tumble in the real world. People, like, break up.
Jojo
They sure do. What about the term sapphic implies that sort of softness to you?
Leeds
Snapchat highlight- like, the story-like function where it’s, it’s like, the kind of, like, LA-influencer kind of, this yeah. I think of sapphic I think of an aesthetic that’s like creeping vines on a notebook kind-of-women
Jojo
Sure, I’m totally visualizing what you’re painting. So that was kind of your first experience into what may be a queer community, is going to choir practice with your mom and your sister? Did you ever participate in the choir?
Leeds
A little bit. I know this. It was in a high school band room for… I think this was Phoenix Band Go, whatever their mascot is. And there was, drums and horns in the back because they were on the risers and behind them there was the instruments. So I definitely accidentally bumped into them or made noise. I don’t think I tore a drum skin, but somehow…
Jojo
At what age was that that you kind of remember going to those practices?
Leeds
10? And I would have to ask… She trauma on my memory until I remember nothing.
Jojo
Did you ever find yourself, as you kind of progressed through your childhood in musical spaces like that of your own volition, did you do band, orchestra, choir, anything like that?
Leeds
I did not do band. I went to the Siskiyou School, a Waldorf first through eighth school. I was there through Valentine’s Day of second grade and I graduated there in eighth grade in 2014, 2015, I think. I think I would have graduated in 2015. And so there was singing there. There was, like, music class and singing performances and as you, Jojo, have heard me sing, I cannot sing for shit. I- incredibly tone deaf. I didn’t… Once I got to, like, high school, like self-determined where I would go into, I had an awareness that my ability to find and hold notes didn’t exist. So I did not engage in physical coordination. didn’t do band.
Jojo
For those who are maybe listening and don’t know what a Waldorf school is, could you explain that to them?
Leeds
Yeah, so Waldorf was a German guy and he developed this style of education where there’s a lot of tactile learning and it’s a lot of different learning modes. So like some people are visual learners, where they learn by looking at something, by seeing something written on the chalkboard. Some people are auditory learners and learn by hearing or saying or repeating something. So tactile learners where it’s to touch, to feel, figure out the problem with their hands. The Waldorf Model of Education attempts to integrate all three of those. and various hybrids into it. So, there’s less sitting around and doing a science class from a textbook and a lot more making a camera obscura out of the staff kitchen.
Jojo
For sure, for sure. It’s definitely a lot more unique and a lot more-
Leeds
Montessori for bigger children.
Jojo
And so your high school experience, though, was a typical public…?
Leeds
It was a public school… Ashland Public School or Ashland High School? Go Grizzlies! And I was not there the first semester of my freshman year. So I had a interesting experience where I felt other and floating along on the edges, my social group was the Robotics Club. I do not remember our four digit number, unfortunately, but people like Gabriel Donas and Joseph, forget his name.
Jojo
Name drops.
Leeds
Name drops, oh, of course. And Academic Scavenger Hunt, I did not do Speech and Debate. What was the thing I did? Like, Brain Bowl?
Jojo
Scholars Bowl, Quiz Bowl. Yeah. Okay.
Leeds
I went to the- I had –I was wearing the shirt the other day – but BPA-sponsored, uh, State in Corvallis, maybe? So this is in northern Oregon.
Jojo
So your extracurriculars then throughout school are kind of more focused towards the academics?
Leeds
Yes. The thinking that I had, like, a subconscious awareness that I was not great with my hands, just like physical coordination has always been an issue and not knowing my own strength. And this is gonna be relevant. So I’ll bring it up now. There is a… little pile of trauma from me hurting other people with my hands because they don’t know my strength or at least perceiving myself as a violent and dangerous creature not a person but a creature and so that has informed the heck out of my queerness shout out to like the fucking AGP.
Jojo
I am not familiar.
Leeds
Okay, yeah, which is a thing I’ll explain on request-
Jojo
You’re welcome to explain now.
Leeds
I’ll explain now. So, AGP, it’s like Auto-Gynophile-something-something. It is a nonsense bullshit rhetoric, paled in particular by the TERFs of the United Kingdom. The TERFs are the Trans-Exclusionary-Radical-Feminists. The most… public of which is JK Rowling. And it’s so-called feminists who want to exclude trans people from the world and yeah, do a little bit bad vibes there. And so AGP is this quack-science where stating that, like, stating that trans women are just guys who like pussy so much they become a woman as a sort of fetish.
Jojo
Okay, I do know this; I didn’t know that term for it, but yes, I have heard of this fetishization of the trans community.
Leeds
Yeah, there’s been a fear that I’ve managed and I’ve- well, I’ve overcome at least some aspects, but I think that’s heavily-informed my queerness, is the idea that, I don’t know my own strength and that I’m a danger to people. And that’s sort of what I learned and established at school and growing up.
Jojo
Do you think that timeline wise that started more at the Waldorf school or into high school there?
Leeds
It started at Waldorf School. Another thing I should mention at the Waldorf School is the primary feature is your homeroom teacher is with you all eight years unless something happened, like it did with my class where our Miss Castanio departed us and we got Michelle Stead going into the sixth grade year. So that there’s a lot of like continuity with that where, I would say in retrospect there’s a feeling that my growth could have happened more or was plausibly… or stunted because there was less change because as a little autistic kid, change is bad, change is very scary. So yeah
Jojo
Gotcha. So you kind of touched on your childhood a little bit. Could you tell me a little bit more about your family life, kind of growing up, up until maybe, say, age 12?
Leeds
So, I was born in Ashland, Oregon. And then my dad was giving his degree at Southern Oregon University – go Raiders! And once he – I don’t think this was a bachelor’s – I think this would have been. PhD? Which one comes first, doctor or masters?
Jojo
Master’s would come before Doctor’s typically.
Leeds
Yeah, so then he got his Master’s at SOU. And then we moved up to Eugene, Oregon, three hours north, University of Oregon – go Ducks! – which is still a part of my personality now. And then he got his master’s. and then moved down to San Jose, California. So he could teach down there at SJSU. Then I- so, San Jose was preschool and then came back up to Ashland and my father went to teach back at SOU, the place he graduated from. And that’s where I went to kindergarten, Montessori kindergarten. And then, Montessori kindergarten, first grade at Willow School, an alternative school with Mrs. Trish.
Jojo
And during this time are your parents still, your parents are married?
Leeds
My parents are married. My father, Dennis, and my mother, Karen. So at this point I don’t know what age school happens but my sister, Sophie, is five years my junior. She was adopted from Walnut Creek, California. We were living in Ashland.
Jojo
And is she your only sibling? Gotcha.
Leeds
She’s my only sibling. So then she joined the family.
Jojo
And how did that feel for you to experience the adoption of your sister?
Leeds
In retrospect, I don’t, well-, I don’t recall. I am decently confident there was a ton of jealousy and FOMO and if you’ve ever been and all of that, like, taking over and becoming core to my being
Jojo
I understand that change wasn’t your strong suit at that time. Did you feel like this major change was impacting your life?
Leeds
Yeah, that- that, yeah, that fucked me up good. And then Sophie joins our life, parents are together. I live in Ashland. And so then we’re at that, the house I grew up in, Southern Oregon. Parents separate, ‘08, I believe, 2008. I think it was 08. Father moves to a place in the neighborhood for a little bit there. I start shelling back between houses. This is where I take on the burden of the trauma of ‘I gotta fix it.’ Like, this belief that their separation is my fault or it’s on me to mend. This is something that’ll carry with me and inform my queerness because it spirals into a, ‘well I’m broken, I must be fixed.’
And then as time passes, my father moves out to Kansas in 2011. Sister is five turning six. I’m- She would have been six when the move happened in the summer after school. I was 11 years old, because before, I remember, it was beginning of the summer, got in a U-Haul, 1,600 miles, a couple days. Then Kansas. I spent the summers in Kansas. Me and Mr. Wood fly out. The summers with our dad. Go back to Oregon for the school year.
Jojo
If I could pause you there, do you remember any feelings towards preferring being with your mom or being with your dad at that time?
Leeds
I very consistently professed a preference towards my father, which has turned out in a hilarious manner, but I… I felt more loved, I believed I got more attention. I competed with my sister for attention. With the age difference of five years is a bit, you know, doesn’t look great, but it is what occurred.
Jojo
And so during the time that you were living in Oregon and spending the summers with your dad, what was the experience like to be separated from him for the better portion of the year? Did you ever spend holidays together or what was that dynamic like for you?
Leeds
Every other holiday would be spent with him. So the parents traded holidays unless they asked for it. In particular, a lot of flying. The memories of the airports are stronger than the memories, besides like a couple of brief vignette shots
Jojo
And do feel like your parents were pretty understanding about… about having that communication be between them, of which holidays would be spent where and how that would occur? Or do you think there was a burden kind of pushed on you and your sister as the children?
Leeds
They did. I mean, eventually there’s a, kind of, choice that I am quote ‘given’, which to this day I dispute that I had that choice, but I’m still growing, I’m still learning. The illusion of choice. So they were really good about not putting burdens on me. It was never my fault. Like based on their actions, the only way I ever perceived that was by lying to myself in clever and complex ways. Probably should have been medicated for ADHD and probably anxiety or depression. Lots of therapists.
Jojo
And this is, like, still 11 years old, kind of, into mid-teens there?
Leeds
Mid-teens, is pre-high school here, middle school.
Jojo
Are there any grandparents in the picture? Cousins?
Leeds
So there’s no one near Oregon. Nearest folks would have been mom’s side of the family in St. Louis. And then my dad has family in the Minneapolis area and the Houston area. And that’s sort of the closest. Every one and a half years, mom’s side of the family would get together for a family reunion. And so that was sort of the big thing. Queerness there, no, not really. Eventually, but I’ll get there. But at this point in time, early high school, no.
Then freshman high school year first semester, my dad is- he’s teaching at a college in Kansas and he gets accepted to teach a semester abroad in Florence, Italy. And then he asks for it and the school supposedly stipends me to go with him? which, question mark, question mark, question mark on that, girly. And then I go. My freshman year of high school has been doing very poorly online in Italy, which is incredible and a really amazing opportunity. Unreal.
Jojo
Yeah. How was that experience for you? Can you talk about it a little bit?
Leeds
Yeah, so in Florence, I have visuals of the Cuomo and my mom, my sister came out, I went to Venice with them. It was very rainy. It’s like those jokes made about the canals overflowing. The trains were nice, I liked the trains.
Jojo
I love a train.
Leeds
Trains. Yeah, so there was a bunch of college students there that my father was teaching. This is a study abroad semester. And I remember playing soccer with them behind the anarchist-bar near where we were staying. And… The poignant memory is learning how to, like, block shots or passes by going down on one knee. Played soccer for a number of years; Never done that. So that like… Yeah, I will demonstrate it, but audio format. Yeah, that was insane. I can’t believe that happened.
Jojo
I’ll have to ask my partner about that. And from what I know of Italy is that it is decently religious, specifically Catholic. And from what I know of the places you’ve mentioned, Oregon, Kansas, and Missouri is that Kansas and Missouri are also decently Christian while Oregon is a little bit more less-organized in their religion. Did your family practice religion growing up or other forms of worship in any way?
Leeds
I feel like I don’t practice religion or other forms of worship to my knowledge. A couple months ago there was a conversation where I became aware that, the way that I’ve been raised, my mother’s practices, was best defined as spiritual non-religious, which in retrospect, absolutely true. I was baptized in a stand of trees in California, Santa Ana Redwoods.
Jojo
And do you feel like that contributes to your identity at all? Do you think that it’s just, a thing that happened to you?
Leeds
It’s more who I am than anything that happened to me. I think the sort of gimme-example is, when texting and sometimes talking, I’ll use gods or goddesses instead of oh god. Like, oh god, this is savage, but that kind of, just getting a little freaky with it, a little weird with it.
Jojo
Yeah, a little kooky.
Leeds
I can’t just have brain damage, I gotta express it.
Jojo
So speaking of brain damage, can you tell me about your experiences of coming out in any format that they may have happened with sexuality, gender, or anything else? And to be clear, coming out is not brain damage. It’s just making a segue there.
Leeds
Yeah, so. What if I want it to be though?
Jojo
Well then it can be for you.
Leeds
Thank you. So, since I was 18, I had some awareness that — it was worse before I wasn’t straight, but – the whole, I pigeonholed myself into somehow was that, well I know how, was that I was a gay man. A lot of it had to do with… because I watch porn, that’s, like, objectifying women and therefore I can’t be trusted around women. And that sort of brain worm has… faded. I have tussled with it and beaten it out now, but it was living deep in my brain at 18. So 18, I was not out. I had a bit of gay sex here, a of gay sex there.
Jojo
Had you had any sex or attraction to women at this point or people of other genders?
Leeds
Attraction to yes, intimate relations with when I was like a smaller child, but not like in the consenting adult sense sure. So thank you, Grindr, for probably informing my sexuality. And then the biggest thing was a lot of role playing online on a game called Space Station 13, which is a top-down pixel-ish style game. where you have a character and you exist in- on a space station and you do your job and you interact with other players playing their characters. And so that’s how I got into the furry subculture through that game where I was like, I’m not a furry but my friends are. Or, I’m not into this but my friends are. But I’ll engage with it and then shit, eventually I’m where I am now.
Jojo
And at this time you’re living in Oregon?
Leeds
I was 18… 17, 18. I moved from Oregon to Kansas all of a sudden. There is an incident with my sister. She expressed that she no longer feels safe around me. And then I… In that moment I say I want to be out in Kansas with my dad. I don’t have a choice, but then I’m out in Kansas with my dad. Living with him, I finish up high school in- at a now defunct high school that had, like, diploma mill vibes to it. Very fascinating. And then I go to college. So my father at this point was a professor at Benedictine College, a Catholic college, private, in Northeast Kansas, most notably, recently known, recently as of my brain, known for the Kansas State Chiefs kicker. What’s his fucking name? Harrison Butker-
Jojo
I surely couldn’t tell you. relation to- yeah, I have heard that name. Harrison Butker.
Leeds
Harrison Butker, but he did a, like, ‘women belong in the kitchen; speech as a commencement address at this school. Which- so I attended first ‘18/’19. 2019 was my freshman year. I failed out both semesters.
Jojo
And, at this point, you are out as a gay man?
Leeds
I am… out yet to my parents. I don’t think I’m subtle to people who perceive me. I don’t think I did. You’ve heard me talk and see where my hands flap.
Jojo
You- I am not interested in assuming what you are or not, but I understand what you’re saying there is that you may have been out to specific environments, but not to some people who- Yeah, I got you.
Leeds
So, I think I lived on campus first semester. Second semester, I was living at home, one vehicle. It’s probably around this point, my first interaction, a hookup with a queer person. At this point in time, transfem; transfem-envy. Who, a- very sweet and good human. Sort of taste of- my first taste of queerness which tastes like cigarettes
Jojo
Yeah, yeah, that’s pretty accurate.
Leeds
So I survived that first year of college. I fail out and then… I have to submit a thing to be able to come back next year to get approved by the Dean’s Office. I don’t submit that in time, but then it doesn’t matter because I go inpatient at research down in KC. It’s voluntary-ish. I mention to a therapist I’m booked with who’s not my main therapist. It’s just this other lady because the person I’m supposed to see couldn’t be there. And I mentioned some things which sound like SI. I say I’m not capable of acting on them. That just, like, doesn’t fly. I get pushed to look at an inpatient. My father becomes aware I get pushed to look at an inpatient. To do an inpatient, I do an inpatient. It sucks. It’s a lot of over-stimulation. It’s a lot of… masking. It’s a lot of shutting down.
Jojo
Do you feel like while you were impatient, you were accommodated for your abilities or disabilities or sexual orientation or gender identity?
Leeds
Absolutely not. I think that my sexuality didn’t matter, which was cool. That wasn’t a factor. But yeah, there was a rumor that a fellow patient, a repeat visitor, was like doing… something in the parking lot with one of staff, like not sex; drugs. Yeah, which is like, that’s probably normal. And that was, like, a, ohshit, this is real. I spent a lot of my life very sheltered, very privileged, very safe, very sterile environments.
Jojo
And now at this point you’re thrown into the, what some may call the harsher end of what is real life.
Leeds
Yeah, like there is… I have my first, I’ll say, real example of a real human interaction with people who experience poverty. Which is like, wow, it took me 18 years, how the fuck, but… I’m from Ashland Oregon. A fear of people.
Jojo
And so coming out of the inpatient facility. What’s the timeline like from being outpatient then to coming out as, to, kind of, on a more broad platform there?
Leeds
So then like, so then COVID happens because that inpatient was fall of 2019. So well, okay, inpatient and then get a job at the local convent where the nuns and sisters are, which very funny in retrospect. The training got close to the Lord.
Jojo
Yeah, little did they know you’re one of the sisters too.
Leeds
Ha ha ha! Little did they know! I was even, like, recently interacted with one of them at my current work. She didn’t because I’m not out there. So she’s very funny. Like, didn’t recognize me at all. Yeah, longer hair, guess. And no mask. Just like, oh, bless, bless the little ladies for not clocking my dumb ass. So then COVID. And then at some point there, around- in that, like, 2018, 2019, let’s say pre-end of 2022, I ended up coming out to my mother because I’m showing her something on my laptop and the Google Chrome profile, I deleted it. It was like something homosexual. It was some funny gay joke. And she’s like,”you, what do you mean?” Okay. Like, that’s how I came out… really?
Jojo
Her reaction then was pretty neutral?
Leeds
She’s supportive. She loves me however I am. My father is teaching in a very Catholic institution. His Catholic faith wavers. He tends to have decent politics. He’s not a fasc, thank God. But I don’t come out to him for probably got a couple years, probably like 23-ish before I come out to him.
Jojo
And what about your sister?
Leeds
I come out to her within a year of being out to my mother.
Jojo
And as you’re coming out and living in Kansas, do you recognize any differences that are occurring just in your environment and how it may feel to be a queer person who’s maybe not out in Oregon versus a queer person who is out or not in Kansas?
Leeds
So this would have been spring of 2019. I went on like a non-date, just a little chit chat, hang out, walk around campus with a member of like the ‘19 college Republican club. Who’s a faggot. Yeah.
Jojo
A grifter. I support you hooking up with them, that’s okay. Okay, just the little anon date; Okay, little meetcute.
Leeds
Thank God I didn’t. It’s like, yeah, it’s just like, it’s, that’s, that there’s, there’s not, not the vibe. So yeah, I become aware that I’m a leftist at some point in the 2020s. And then probably ‘23, ‘24, I start internally using they/them pronouns for myself. And I start to gradually realize all these little clues like, wow, that was bottom dysphoria when I was… 12.
Jojo
Do you remember what instance that maybe was? Or any instances of what these realizations may have been?
Leeds
When I was, like, early-teens, going through puberty, looking down at my body and going, closing my eyes, like, ‘God, I wish I had a chest. God, I wish my groin was flat,’ or like in any, compared to an out-y kind of situation. and that that and like digitally penetrating myself and and and that being the safest way to touch my body.
Which wow holy shit because I hadn’t really just didn’t process that for years and years and so then they came on it was like oh my god and so there was a year or two of going like well I can’t be a trans woman I’m not woman enough. I’m not this and then we get to… There’s a second attempt at college at Benedictine. I think it’s either ‘22/’23 or ‘23/’24. I think it’s ‘22/’23. I fail out again. Dreams of succeeding but, retrospect, like, environment plus not being out… I just wasn’t out. My primary friend is like a raging Catholic freak.
Jojo
And do you see that as your goal for yourself to get back to college and get a degree?
Leeds
Yeah. Yeah. My work better fucking pay me to go back. And I’ll go. Yeah, I want that piece of paper. I want that knowledge that comes with it. I love learning.
Jojo
Love to learn. Awesome. Could you describe, you kind of mentioned, you know, not feeling woman enough to be trans. Could you describe some of your relationships with other people of trans or non-binary genders at that time, if there were any?
Leeds
So there’s someone I hooked up with my freshman year. who I saw again a couple times, like two and a half hours away in like nowhere Kansas. People online, friends online. This is how it’s been since like 2018, 2019. I gather like a clutch of queers who I now do tabletop, like D&D-esque stuff with Tuesday nights.
Jojo
So you found a form of community online there. And what avenues of community are those taking other than maybe DND?
Leeds
Online Community. So this is from Space Station 13 so playing that game with these folks these queer furries. Table-Top Simulator, Red Dragon Inn, bits of Magic The Gathering; we’re all degenerate fucks of various online communities where, looking- it wasn’t in the moment that people were trans, but looking back like wow that’s a lot of people who then realized they were trans. Very funny stuff.
Jojo
And how do you think these communities helped or assisted in you to feel grounded in yourself or?
Leeds
So they referred me by my chosen name, Leeds, not my legal dead name. And that’s it. That’s the beginning and the end of everything.
Jojo
Validation.
Leeds
Validation. Leeds, for me, is a gender neutral name. There are like other names in my head that I might go with as, like, a legal name, but this is my chosen name. “My name is Leeds Dunleavy. I’m originally from Ashland, Oregon. I live in Lawrence, Kansas.” Like that statement of identity; I feel whole; I feel real. I don’t feel like a fragment of myself. I don’t feel like my dead name.
Jojo
Mm-hmm, genuine. Do you find yourself experiencing these communities outside of online spaces? I know you talk about Tuesday nights for D&D.
Leeds
D&D is online. For in-person queer community, gotta jump ahead to, say, July 2023 when I start talking to my now partner on Grindr, the everything app. And we moved to snapchat, we just talked. Eventually, probably like late 2023, start talking daily. That, and yeah, they become my person, sort of my rock. I don’t meet with them in person until late January, early February, late January or February ‘24. And then just a little bit before that, I befriended another queer person. very close to where I lived, Northeast Kansas. Someone who is fluctuating in my all my life, who I have often referred to as my bestie. But then, yeah, I starting in, late February, I see this person on weekend, then starting on 3/2/24, I start dating this person who’s now my partner. And then every weekend, whenever I’m not working, because I’m working a grocery retail job that has funny hours, I would go and see her and witness her and be present for her and her medical transition as it picks up steam. And then at around the time we start dating, I schedule an appointment for HRT in five months. I talked to a scheduling person on about like 3/3, or thereabouts, ‘24. And then I first went in on 8/3/24. So that’s the, like, oh. Because what happens is my now partner sees me as not a man, then everything clicks. It’s like,
Jojo
So your partner kind of helped to enable that validation of yourself for yourself?
Leeds
Massively. Yeah, the witnessing of who I am. Seeing past the exterior, bringing to light and holding up and validating the true self. And that’s true to this day, something I try my hardest to do for her. And it’s this incredible exchange of like, wow. Seeing someone for who they are and being seen for who you are, that’s better than sex.
Jojo
Words don’t quite describe it. So you started transitioning, of beginning, at least socially transitioning, beginning of March 2024. Can you kind of describe the process that you’ve gone through in transitioning in Kansas?
Leeds
So, like online, in Discord, I’ll put it in pronouns, then, it’s very interesting, in Kansas, I… am not visibly queer most of the time. Due to stares and glares, and general hostility in the place I was living in a small town in northeast Kansas, I was careful. I would only be out to people who I was confident I could trust, a small handful of folks, and requesting folks use the wrong pronouns for me in public. At that… being aware of state legislature and I was going over the border in Missouri, the various shitfuckery occurring, reading legal recaps, things that made me sad. I was doing that before I officially transed my gender. It hit harder. Some more I fell into it. I- it was like I accepted myself for who I am.
Yeah, being trans in Kansas means loving my neighbor. Being trans in Kansas means standing the fuck up. Being trans in Kansas means saying no to hate, to bullshit, to intolerance, to Kobach and based on where we are in Kansas, Brownback and… et. al.
Jojo
That’s a powerful statement. Can you describe any successive successes that you have accomplished or achieved while transitioning?
Leeds
Yeah. I guess, I get at work is old people who can’t see gender me correctly, which is pretty funny. They’re really good interaction with an elderly couple where the wife who is less senile was trying to misgender me as I present. Like it’s based on presentation, probably correct to misgender me. And then I was like, no, no, no, no. You know, correct pronouns like she, she, was very, that’s a success. Where I, I look other big success was in that small town of Atchison. I had Chappell Roan on, playing music in the office and someone came in. This person was like, ‘do you pick your music?’ I was like, ‘yeah, I do. I really like it.’ And then this person talked about a, they had a, their first kiss was with someone of the same gender. And this person they kissed in high school then went on to get in a very shitty-looking-yikes heterosexual- relationship. And this person was like, I hope. that this person is visibly stuck in this awful relationship, finds their way out, and is like, yeah, this is, yes. But yeah, that, like, being a safe queer space, especially post-November.
Jojo
Definitely a success there. You talk about the legislature being oppressive. Can you talk about any obstacles you faced on a more individual level, as well?
Leeds
Yeah, I… I can’t update my passport or driver’s license to reflect who I am. We’re seeking X marker, because it will be confiscated; I believe there’s a good chance it will be confiscated. A legal name change, a general rule of thumb requirement is gonna be to… present as you are for a year, be like out, least among work. I do not feel safe doing so. I have number of Kansas-based coworkers and yeah. There is I have heard of one openly queer person in the entire company of hundreds of national company And I only know that because they got fucking dead named. Yeah, but the person did seem to be sweet like I think I think maybe she clocked me in a good way and did that but like it was just like it was very, very funny. I can’t. Yeah, I want to scream. I must not. So yeah, particularly the struggle is my driver’s license, ID, my insurance, my legal information does not match who I am. I don’t feel safe doing so because… I am confident that it would not return back to me.
Jojo
And those forms of official validation are important.
Leeds
Yeah. That’s who the state perceives me as. By gosh, by golly, I don’t give a shit about the state. And it informs how I can help people. So, por ejemplo, for example, if I want to go to the jail, talk to an inmate, I need to present my ID, and I need to look like my ID. So I can’t have… the tits that are currently occurring. I have to be careful with how I wear my hair. I might be incentivized to frown or make a funny face because my face physically looks different on HRT. It’s community action and particularly engaging with incarcerated individuals is fucky as hell, and that’s where my passion is.
Jojo
I gotcha. So yeah, that is very, very critical and important. Yeah, I’m sorry that that is some of the obstacles you were facing. Do you imagine, did you imagine that you may have been in a different spot in your transition as you started a year ago than you are now? Or do you kind of expect to be where you are right now?
Leeds
I did not expect to be where I am right now. I had no timeline for moving in with my partner, which happened at the beginning of this year. I had no timeline for engaging with the queer community. Hi JoJo, you’re queer community. I had… Yeah, like a year ago, or at large, the last year, I would have no expectation. I wouldn’t dare think that I would be happy and feel safe at home. That isn’t a thing I would dare to imagine for myself or be able to think of, because everything was then just: survived the weekend, see your girlfriend, survived the work week, days off, go, and hide there, and recover there.
Jojo
Would you agree that, kind of, taking that first step towards your transition and then following through with additional steps has enabled that happiness enabled you to feel?
Leeds
Yeah. I would make a note, a Tumblr discourse note, that transition is valid with or without medication, with or without anything. I am a firm believer that transition is what label you decide to put on your head when you get your mind palace all dressed up. Do you put in baby blues or early pinks? Or sort of puce greens as the enbys are wanting to do.
Jojo
Do you think any intergenerational relationships with non-binary, trans people, gay people, influenced how you view your transition and how you are able to journey through the transition?
Leeds
The… Earlier I said was a dyke fag. I would never associate with the word ‘dyke’ if I hadn’t had that experience with my mom’s choir. That, being around lesbians, especially older lesbians, people who have, like, who live with their partner and in some cases have married and… are growing old together. Women growing old with women is something I would not have been able to imagine or even conceptualize, much less yearn for. And here I am learning and growing with a woman as a partner. As a woman. Like the fuck? It’s pretty special.
Jojo
It’s very special. I’m glad that you’re able to fulfill those goals in that way. I’m happy for you. Do you have any other thoughts or comments on community, in regards to transitioning or transness or being queer?
Leeds
Yeah, I do. Just ears open, like listening to the world. Like, for example, you, Jojo, with like, reading your blog posts and sharing them with fellow queers or especially like, former co-worker high schoolers who… experience a lot of fear of being too queer or too weird. Like, I don’t know if you’re weird. Yeah. I think-
Jojo
Depends on who you ask.
Leeds
I think you- your blog has the potential to be, to have like: freak-comma-diva-energy. Yeah. Sometimes. And sharing that, like that, certainly I am excited to read that post. Uh, and
Jojo
Yeah, sometimes. Certainly today. Time of recording anyway.
Leeds
Yeah, it’s… Share your queer joy with the world. Whether it’s a time capsule buried to be never dug up, piece of paper you write on. Whether it’s what you say to yourself when you run your hands over your scars. It’s that acknowledgement, the seeing of yourself is the biggest gift you can give yourself or give anyone else.
Jojo
Absolutely. I think, you know, sharing queer joy is important. And then if queer joy is shared with you, to be open and listen and acknowledge and respect it. I love that. Moving on towards identity, I’d like to know what aspects of your identity are most important to you, that you see and visualize and honor in yourself?
Leeds
important aspects of my identity are my, my dyke-iness, particularly in the… yearning for the stonetop stone-butch identity, which is not where I am now. And it’s this thing that I aspire towards. Stonetop referring to, within context of sexual intimacy, tops who… I’m gonna fuck this up… My personal understanding is tops who are uncomfortable with or do not receive… like touch even, it’s don’t touch and probably even don’t look policy. We’re doing advanced DADT on our genitals here in the queer community. My privilege, my whiteness, my ability to maybe cis-pass? Probably cis-pass? I think I can plausibly het-pass; I can stare at boobs really intently and creepily; I think that’s het-passing. Another part of my identity is being a dirty filthy commie, not like a red, but a leftist, left-unity, syndicalism, Soc-Dem-Adjacent kind of freak. I’m a lover, not a fighter. That’s reflected in my gender, my politics, my… how I choose to be in the world. I don’t want to hurt people. Yeah.
Jojo
Yeah. Are there any specific important influences on your sense of self?
Leeds
Absolutely. I’m going to cheat here. You and your authenticity that you bring. That I see whenever I’m near you, whenever I read your blog, whenever Alyx talks about you.
Jojo
I don’t think that’s cheating.
Leeds
It isn’t. Other strong influences would be… Like Stephen in fact, my parents. I am my parents’ daughter to my detriment and dubious benefit. Like my partner, she is huge in my life and… It’s everything from, like, seeing her boobs hurt and then experiencing it myself; to particular way- paths of dysphoria to just the… the living life, the jo de vivre, the joy for life, however it is, the French. And then, yeah, I think that, like, [cheating] every queer person is an inspiration, particularly those close to me. The punk and seeing it as inspiration to me. Like the concept of furries – this I not write people in my life specifically – but… the, ‘I reject your reality and substitute my own, but it’s for the physical body.’ Whether that’s, like, on a gender-aspect or on a therian-aspect or on like a puppy-girl aspect, it’s that kind of otherness… speaks to me. And so those are some of my inspirations.
Jojo
Totally. Can you talk about how being trans impacts or interacts with other aspects of your being, whether that’s race, class, ability, those types of demographics?
Leeds
Yeah, so… My transness impacts my class because I am a trans woman insulated from poverty. So there is an amount of effort for me to see and hear and feel on a real aspect many of my siblings don’t have. Similar kind of story with my whiteness. It, like as sort of alluded to earlier, the color of my skin provides me an avenue to interact with the penal system, with the judicial system in a way that me and my brothers and sisters and my siblings face particular barriers with. My poor command of the Spanish language and my desire to learn more provides me with a sort of, like, floppy olive branch. It’s not sturdy and it’s something and that- yeah my desire to to support the community support as in uplift, recognize like this is not me and it is fucking powerful and healing and incredible and to facilitate that whatever way I can by making space is huge.
Jojo
To use your privilege for the benefit of those who maybe don’t have it.
Leeds
Yeah, absolutely. I have to say, I’m gonna be over here in the corner with my noise-canceling headphones on and my hoodie on and my hood up. If I can help, tell them what to do, and I’ll do it. And just being there, knowing that in a lot of social situations, things like protests, things like community meetings, I will become overstimulated. And I, by gosh, by golly, I want to be there. Whether that’s making a water run for the protest or just holding the door at the boardroom, the town hall. It’s doing what I can and recognizing what is a lot for me and what takes certain amounts of energy out.
Jojo
Absolutely, I think that’s a great answer. Can you describe maybe how your gender or transness, how your understanding of gender or transness has changed as your identity has changed?
Leeds
Yeah, so as mentioned earlier, So I definitely thought trans was a binary, like, fucked up lack of awareness of transmascs. And then, having sort of confusion over, like, transmascs versus Butch or, like, individual, like, masc-presenting Dykes, for a moment and also something like. There’s stuff going on there I’m not gonna try to untangle he/him lesbian discourse in my brain, valid queers. I have come to understand that I don’t have to be a man or a woman. I can be a third thing. I can be a, I can be just a little guy. I be a creature.
Jojo
I think- I like what you kind of touched on there is that you don’t have to untangle the complex web of what gender is or can be. It can just be what you are.
Leeds
Yeah, I have a perception of myself that starts with Dyke Fag that and that’s fulfilling for me. That’s all I need. Anything else is icing on the cake. Any effort towards that is like, I could just bake my neighbors some Irish Soda Bread instead. God, yeah.
Jojo
And she does.
Leeds
We love a good baking project.
Jojo
Cool. We’ll move into kind of just don’t have a good word for this section. It’s some deep questions, some not so deep questions, just kind of a mixed bag. Could you tell me about your proudest moment in life?
Leeds
My proudest moment would have been moving in with my partner. I got out of a living situation that was not particularly good for me or for my queerness. And it was saying, this is enough. This is, like, asking to move in like that, that step of self advocacy, particularly in regards to my identity. I’m incredibly proud of that. I will hold that forever.
Jojo
That’s a great, great experience. I’m happy you have it. Now could you tell me about your most challenging moment in life?
Leeds
Yeah. My… most challenging moment was failing out of college the first time. I was dealing poorly with gender by not recognizing it. I had set myself up. I say I set myself up as: I’m smart, I need to do college, It’s the one thing I’m good at, This gives me purpose, This gives me identity, This is everything, This is who I am, I’m nothing if not for college. And I failed both semesters.
And the… And then getting up and moving on from that with a lot of help and time and failing is the best I’ve ever been to have the job I have now to have solid 40 hour Monday-Friday weeks to come home after work is such a success, such a change from the… the fears that came into that appeared prominently after failing out that first time. Like, I’ll live with my parents until I’m 35. I have nothing. have, know, just out of ideation, stuff. coming out the other side of that. And existing with that and recognizing that and seeing that part of me and going, okay, and? Yes, and-ing the fuck out of my failures in trauma.
Jojo
That’s wonderful. I think that’s, I think everyone, you know, is going to face their challenges and their obstacles. I think managing them in that way is a great tool, a great way of going, journeying through it. I think that’s wonderful. And I think that you’re, it’s wonderful that you’re able to do that for yourself.
Kind of similar to the challenges there, could you or would you like to comment on any experiences you faced in regards to insecurities and finances, the home or food, issues with mental health, physical health or addiction, or just in general towards your safety and security as a person?
Leeds
Yeah, so until 1/3/25, I was living with my father, due to emotional turbulence, possibly neglect, emotional abuse. I am very very lucky, very privileged, very very taken care and having that moment of… oh, it’s really bad; I need to get out. The years, like seven years of shit. I think I gave up on escape years ago. Yeah, I gave up for escape first time I failed out of college. I just sort of followed.
Insecurity in finances, home, or food. I have faced significant insecurities where I did not have a backup I could trust. Like in the moment, maybe, but there was always an option. I had an escape. It wasn’t actual food, financial or sheltering security.
Jojo
Are there any important sources of support that you’ve interacted with that you’d like to recognize at this time, be it individuals or broader organizations?
Leeds
Yeah. I’d like to recognize Miki from Reno. Belle from Buenos Aires. All those I have interacted with from SS13 to the Lawrence Queer community, to my partner Alyx, to you, Jojo, to your husband. To Ben and Clara and Kageki and Chloe and KC and these people in my life who’ve facilitated my journey to queerness. To… The student newspaper teacher whose name I forget, out of Ashland High School. To Mr. Bowling from Ashland High School. To Mr. Paul Huard from Ashland High School. To Evan, the head of the queer club at AHS with the acne and the sweater. To, yeah. To these people who show me that it’s okay to be weird, that it’s beautiful in fact to be weird.
Jojo
And it is. And I’d like to thank them for you too. So thank you to all those people.
Leeds
I’d like to go back to my experience with mental health, physical health, and addiction. Addiction, is porn addiction that has faded as estrogen has nuked this shit out of my libido, which is really funny. But as I regain a libido, I’ll see how I fare on that. Yeah, like a fuck you to the like, Christian-no-porn groups. That’s, yeah. There are ways of handling an addiction and shame is not one that I… that I believe to be beneficial as a primary tool. Something in the toolkit, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you’ll see it. It’ll show up in the steps. And to lean on that as your draw in is stupid as shit. Think like YouTube ads in particular.
Physical health. Body don’t work too good. I am not physically disabled in my opinion. Coordination isn’t great and that’s mainly just, like, a shame thing.
Mental health’s a shit fuck, to put it politely. It’s better than it was, and it’ll be better than it has been in the future. And is cool and all and being loved is pretty sick too. So a combination between the drugs and love and support, I get by.
Jojo
Could you tell me about a time where you felt genuinely, truly seen for who you are as you see yourself?
Leeds
Yeah, the first time I met my now partner in person at her apartment in KCK. There’s a particular hug and a head-on-shoulder, like leaning on her shoulder, that like, that I treasure from over a year ago, that, that’ll always be with me because that’s like, oh, I can, I don’t have to mask. I can be, I can exist. And every damn time I get she/her’d – Looking at you Jojo – Yeah, that is the time I felt seen.
Jojo
That’s wonderful. I think that’s beautiful. And for those listeners who have listened to Alyx’s oral history as well, you may hear a very similar story there. So I think that’s so touching and beautiful. So I have one more question here and it’ll be the question that we end on. Your answer will be the final piece of this oral history. So before we get there, I’d like to say thank you, Leeds, for participating in this and for sharing your story. And before we get to that last question, I’d like to just ask you if there’s any other comments, thoughts you have at this time to share.
Leeds
Thank you so much. Thank you to this venue for hosting us.
Jojo
Absolutely. Cool. So, last question here is that if your next sentence could be broadcast to every person that’s currently living on the planet, they have to hear it; What would you say to those people?
Leeds
Fuck cops. Be whoever you want to be. *kisses the microphone*