Jojo Katsbulas
Hey there, my name is Jojo Katsbulas with the Kansas Trans Oral History Project, and today I am in conversation with Devin Forbes. Devin, can you start by telling us your full name, age, and gender, as well as any pronouns as you prefer them?
Devin Forbes
Yes, my name is Devin Emerson Forbes. I am 21. I am a Trans Man and I use he/him pronouns.
Jojo
Awesome, and when and where were you born?
Devin
I was born in Burbank, California, 2003, October 20th.
Jojo
Very nice. And where do you live now?
Devin
I live in Lawrence, Kansas.
Jojo
And what kind of- What made that switch for you to move, or to come from the West Coast and then to get to Lawrence? What- what happened to get here?
Devin
Uh, so I was born in Burbank, which is a suburb of Los Angeles. And then my family moved out to Vegas and we were, or at least I was out there for 19 years until moving to Lawrence in 2024. Uh, I went through a pretty nasty breakup, like at the very, very, very end of 2022. Um, and decided, you know what? Fuck it. I’m going back to school. I want to take some time, focus on me. And I have family that lives here in Lawrence.
I’ve got my, mom’s, some of my mom’s first cousins and their children. And so, I decided I didn’t want to go back to school in Vegas. I didn’t want to go to UNLV. And so knowing that KU had a lot of programs that I was interested in, I decided, you know what, we’re going to go out to Kansas. So I moved out to Lawrence, basically, we’re coming up just on when you’re being out here or at least like living here – though I would come out to visit pretty often. And started at Johnson County Community College, just finished out my GE credits before I transfer over. But I will be starting KU in the fall.
Jojo
Very nice. Congratulations. Yeah. Awesome. So you said that you are a Trans Man. Could you describe your gender a little bit more for me?
Devin
Thank you. Yeah, so I was assigned female at birth and up until the age of 13, I was socialized as female. I grew up with a family that was not the most accepting of a lot of things. So, kind of figuring out my sexuality and gender identity was something that I had to do kind of on the low. So, it wasn’t a lot of acceptance. I kind of always knew, maybe not always, but as I started getting older and especially into puberty, definitely, I went into horrible depression starting around age 11. I spent basically two years with my parents worried that they were going to have to put me into inpatient. And during a lot of that time, there was a lot of internal… of something doesn’t click the way that it’s supposed to. And so I had some very, very limited exposure to friends at the time who identified as Trans – one in particular, really – And that kind of led me down the rabbit hole of, you know, this, it’s not that uncommon, or at least, you know, it is, it is something that exists for people to feel weird about the gender that they were assigned at birth or just to not click with what they’ve been told.
And so at 13, I originally came out to my mom as Non-Binary and my dad, not too long later though, that was definitely much more of an uphill battle. Within a couple of months, I kind of refined that down to no, I’m… I’m just a man. And it was, we talk a lot about, like, gender dysphoria in the trans community, but it’s really the gender euphoria that kind of teaches you who you are. And it was when I would present more masculinely and people assumed that I was just a young teenage boy that I felt happiest at home. So from there it was kind of like, oh, okay… so that’s why things have felt weird. And so from that point onwards, I was like, ‘okay, no, I’m just a guy, just a dude.’ I cut my hair short, did all the things that a lot of folks do when you’re that age and there’s not much you really can do other than just social transition. I started going by Devin and using he/him pronouns. And that was one thing that’s just, kind of, everything fell into place and it was like, okay, this is… This is where I was always supposed to be.
Jojo
Yeah, I think that’s super cool to hear you speak of the euphoria that you felt and how that was kind of the more important variable for you rather than the dysphoria.
Devin
You move away from the dysphoria, but the dysphoria doesn’t really tell you what’s wrong… just that something is wrong.
Jojo
Totally. And you mentioned that you had the one friend there that was kind of your first experience to transgender. Do you remember ever hearing that term before? Or could you tell me a little bit more about your experience with that friend?
Devin
I believe I was vaguely familiar with the concept previous to that. My mom and… my dad was, I mean, my dad was more progressive than his family, but definitely not very progressive by a large margin… But it was, was something that was kind of like, okay, I know that people can like people of the same gender. know that there’s, you know, folks who just don’t fit into that normative box that we tend to put people into. But I know I wasn’t super familiar with the idea of like, ‘you don’t have to identify with the gender you were assigned at birth’ until I got a little bit older and I think I was around 11 or 12 at the time, when through a bowling league that I was in, one of my teammates was Non-Binary. And that was something that we talked a bit about, and I thought it was interesting and in a lot of ways that definitely was kind of the kickoff point of like, okay, I’ve never thought about this before. And, you know, a decent amount of research and diving into the internet at a young, unsupervised age. Just kind of coming across different things and going, “that makes a lot of sense.”
And I think probably by the age of 12 or whatnot, I had a pretty decent idea of where I was, but I wasn’t ready to come out at that point. It’s about another year before I finally said anything. Mostly just because, again, not having the greatest family on her. My dad’s side was like, that’s a can of worms that I’m not sure I want to deal with right now.
Jojo
I think it’s pretty common amongst the community to have that experience with the internet, and have that be a very eye-opening experience and to come across what can exist in that way.
Devin
I think especially for kind of my age group in the community, and especially if you are not already actively involved in the community for any other reason, social media, the internet, that definitely becomes your gateway into learning about things and seeing different people of different experiences and going, ‘oh okay, that’s a thing I didn’t know happened or existed.’ And it was through a lot of reading and just different people’s experiences and looking at different things that, you know, you’re kind of, you’re able to come to a better informed conclusion. And that was, that was definitely the case for me.
Jojo
Totally. Are there any other early experiences with the Trans Community that spark interest to you?
Devin
I think the… I wasn’t out at the time. Well, I originally came out at 11 actually as lesbian, which I look back now and I think that just had more to do with me knowing something was off, but not really being able to figure out what. But my mom, being very supportive, got me into a LGBT youth group at the local LGBT center in Las Vegas where I grew up. And the first time that I went, the first person from the group who I met, her name was Tori and she was a young, I want to say she was maybe 20, 21, Black trans woman who, you know, it’s in Vegas and in many places that is a hard path to be on.
But I just remember meeting her and some of the other people within that group who were trans or gender nonconforming and whatnot and just seeing, you know, seeing the actual lives that people lead, versus, there’s a lot of internet discourse, there’s a lot of ‘you have to do this, you have to do that, you have to check this box or do this thing.’ When you get into the community and you actually meet people, just regular people, it becomes a lot more clear of just none of that shit fucking matters. And meeting her and a lot of the other trans folk in the group was definitely really monumental and going like, ‘okay, this is an okay thing and something that… something that can and needs to exist to some degree.’ And there was also a few Trans Masc folk who I got to meet through that group that definitely became kind of role models to me as to what I wanted to work towards. And so it was a very, very welcoming experience, very, very supportive environment.
Jojo
That’s awesome. I’m glad to hear that you had that and that, you know, regardless of your mom’s intentions, you know, she was able to give you an avenue to be able to learn more about the community.
Devin
Oh yeah, it was definitely, definitely very helpful.
Jojo
Awesome. So kind of going into that, moving a little bit more towards the environment. Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood and family life?
Devin
So my folks, like I said, we originally lived in Los Angeles and then we moved out to Las Vegas when I was about a year and a half. So it was my mom, my dad, I have an older sister, older half sister, so we have different fathers. And we were moving, the reason we moved out to Vegas was my dad’s parents retired to Vegas from Los Angeles, just to go somewhere that was a little bit less expensive and whatnot. And so my dad and his sister, my aunt, decided that they were going to move out to Vegas to stay close to my dad’s parents. And so, it was August of 2005 that we moved into my childhood home – lived there about 17 years. And so that was, that was the, kind of, immediate family that I grew up with: my mom, my dad, my sister, my aunt, and then my dad’s mom and stepdad.
And it wasn’t until I got a little bit older that my dad’s biological dad came back into the picture. He unfortunately struggled with substance use for a long time, so I didn’t get to meet him until I was older. We had a lot of extended family, but not ones that I saw on a super regular basis. Unfortunately, my dad’s side of the family is extremely conservative, so his mom and stepdad were involved with some of the local Republican committees. I don’t necessarily think on, like, a political level, more just a community level. And so it was definitely, definitely an interesting environment to grow up in and for much of my younger years until I got a little bit older and started learning things more on my own and figuring stuff out that I kind of went, ‘a lot of this is kind of bullshit.’ It really wasn’t until I was probably, probably around the same age of like 11, 12, 13, that I really started to unlearn a lot of the stuff that had been taught to me from a young age.
Jojo
And so you kind of talk about politics being, even on a community level, kind of being an influencing factor. I’m curious if you- if religion or other forms of worship are also prevalent in that part of your life?
Devin
Yes and no. So, I can’t really speak to what the religious beliefs of my dad and his sister were. Never really thought much [?]. My mom is Agnostic, kind of leans on the spiritual-side. But my dad’s mother and stepfather are Ashkenazi, so Jewish. Stayed pretty close to a lot of the beliefs. Now, we did make the joke that they were more ‘Jew-ish’ just based on the fact that we never went to Synagogue. We celebrated all of the holidays and did all the rites and whatnot, but never actually went to Temple. So, it didn’t have a lot of effect on me, I would say. Just we didn’t have a lot of involvement with the faith. It was more kind of the, the cultural aspect of things. So I didn’t really- I wasn’t really exposed to a lot of organized religion and whatnot until I got older and friends who went to church or other things like that.
Jojo
Sure. And could you describe your relationship to religion now or towards your family, your family members now?
Devin
Uh, well, I have not spoken to anyone on my father’s side of the family since I was 14. Um, and I have not spoken to my father, uh, since I was 18 and seen him in person since I was 14. And upon turning 18, he, uh, promptly kicked me off of his health insurance. And that was the last time that we spoke. Uh, he- we didn’t have a great relationship when I was younger, he was gone a lot, he was unfaithful to my mom, they got divorced, I ended up in the middle of the divorce mostly because of him. And so we didn’t have a great relationship and he was not- he- there was some effort, but he wasn’t the greatest when it came to my gender identity and being accepting who I was. I think in some ways it was just very alien to him and he didn’t really know what to do about a lot of things. And then I think in other ways it was that conservative upbringing that he had been through where that was just not something you did. And so he- I can’t speak to really what I, what his beliefs regarding trans folk are – but he was not the most supportive. His parents were definitely extremely conservative and very, very bigoted toward folks within the community, whether just queer or trans was not something that was seen as a good thing, within their households. Unfortunately, they- they spent a lot of time watching Fox news and the like. So they were a little, little biased in their own way. So I haven’t, I haven’t talked to any of them since I was 14. Um, then having talked to my father, period, since, uh, 18.
So I lived with my mom full time from then on and officially been no contact for almost three and a half years at this point with my father. With my mom, my mom and my sister, I’m still very close to. They both still live in Vegas. They try to come out as much as they can to visit now that I’m here in Lawrence, or I go back and I visit them if I can. So we still have a good relationship, but I don’t have much of a relationship with them… my fathers’ folks.
Jojo
I got you. And do you find yourself practicing religion at all now or curious about any religions or how does that play into your life these days?
Devin
I would say that I’m someone who did become fairly spiritual as I got older. My mom is into a lot of, kind of, mysticism and things like that. For me, I would, at this point, probably just say that I’m Pagan. I just, you know, there are things greater than us that we do not understand. I guess probably Pagan or Agnostic would be the best way to describe it.
Do I know what’s out there? No. Do I think that there is probably something? Sure. Do I think we’ll ever understand it? Absolutely not. And I don’t think that’s the point.
Jojo
Slay! And then since moving to Kansas, moving to Lawrence, how has your perspective changed or would you say that your development has changed at all since being here in Kansas?
Devin
Well, moving was honestly a very… the community in Vegas is very fractured. There’s not a lot of stability. There’s not a lot of events and whatnot that exist for young adults and whatnot. Most services and events are for either youth or for older folks struggling to find connection. And so when you hit the, kind of, young-adult-years, it’s not a lot other than getting involved in the party scene and that just wasn’t my jam. I didn’t- I didn’t have a lot of… I mean, I had queer friends, but definitely not in the way that I do now.
Since moving… Lawrence has a much more interconnected community. It’s much more structured and stable and you can find people and you can do things and there’s a lot of stuff aimed at a lot of different people. I got involved with the Trans Lawrence Coalition, which is one of the groups out here that does trans rights advocacy and things like that. And I now sit on the steering committee with the Trans Lawrence Coalition as the events and outreach chair. So I handle a lot of our event planning and connecting with people and connecting with different organizations. I am currently the, kind of, main person running the youth services that we have started recently in response to SB63 passing through the Kansas Legislature. So coming to Lawrence has been a really amazing opportunity to connect with other people of similar and different experiences.
I moved out here and I met my partner who I’ve now been with for almost a year. We started dating pretty early on after I moved and it’s been a really amazing opportunity to meet a lot of different people and actually find community, which is something that I didn’t really have much before moving.
Jojo
I think, you know, it’s awesome work that you’re doing with the Trans-Lawrence Coalition. And I think that kind of segues us perfectly into our next topic, which is community. And I’m interested: What people in your life have been most important, as well as what communities in your life have been of high value to you?
Devin
When it comes to important people, definitely my mom and my sister, they’ve been big supports for a very long time. Thankfully, my mom’s side of the family, which I didn’t have a lot of connection to when I was younger, just because of distance and other stuff going on. But now, you know, they’ve all been wonderful and welcoming and me being Trans is the difference between being right or left handed, it does not matter, which is definitely very different from the folks that I grew up with. So it’s been- it’s been a major benefit, especially living out here, living closer to a lot of my mom’s family, who mostly live in the Midwest or down in the Southeast. And so, my mom has been a huge support in my life, in a lot of things. Thankfully, she was the one who kind of got me, she got me into therapy, she got me into a lot of youth support stuff when I was younger, just to make sure that I had folks around me who were of similar experience.
And I did have, there was definitely stuff that I was a part of when I was younger, that was huge. I mean, the youth group at the LGBT Center in Las Vegas was a massive part of my teen years. And I was also in a trans support group for trans teens, which was extremely beneficial. And now moving to Lawrence and having a larger community to do advocacy work with, and just have friends and other folk to spend time with and do stuff, has been really amazing. Again, kind of… There are pros and cons to Vegas, but one of the cons in my personal experience is, again, just that, kind of, splintering of the community where there’s just not a lot of interconnectedness, which is very, very different from how it is out here.
I’ve gotten to work with and speak to people from Lawrence PFLAG and Rainbow Kids and Families and Lawrence Pride, and so many other folks. And you- you just, meet so many people and have the ability to work with so many people to do different things, which has been a really rewarding experience it’s something that I definitely would have gotten involved with when I was younger, if that had existed in Las Vegas, but at least the, where I was at that time wasn’t really something that existed. So having so many people that you are able to do that kind of stuff with is very, very big for me coming here.
Jojo
I’m so glad that you have that now. Having that, just the existence of access to those different communities and having the interconnection between them is so important.
Devin
Oh absolutely!
Jojo
So you talk about doing advocacy work with TLC. I’m curious where you find yourself experiencing life outside of the home these days in Lawrence?
Devin
So, I do spend a lot of time with the Trans Lawrence Coalition with events and whatnot, but I spend most, would say the majority of my time though is still typically spent with my partner, Alexander, who I live with. So sometimes that’s just time at home. Sometimes that is going out and doing things. I run a weekly D &D campaign. So we’ll have a session tomorrow after a bit of a break.
If I’m not home, it’s- there’s typically one of two places where I’m at: is either I am at work or I am at Dragon’s Board, which is a local hobby store that I love. Actually where Alexander and I met. I’m there quite a bit for different board game nights and events that they do, or also just to play games with friends where typically I was hosting the Dungeons and Dragons campaign. I’ve been running since July of last year at this point, I think. So definitely a lot of really awesome people that have been able to meet here in Lawrence.
Jojo
That’s awesome. I’m curious, kind of outside of our questions here, what interests you about Dungeons and Dragons? Has that always been something you’re interested in or what draws you to that?
Devin
I was introduced to D&D when I was in middle school by my middle school theater teacher cause she played that as a teenager into college. And it’s- it’s just kind of a- I think for a lot of people, it’s a form of escapism. Cause you know, you’re sitting there, you’re hanging out with friends, you are role playing a story that often has very little to do with the real world or sometimes it does have to deal with the real world and kind of gives you that ability to do things that you may not have the ability to do in everyday life. And to me, it’s been a really awesome way to meet new friends and just meet different people and come together and do something collaborative is interesting and fun. It gets people talking.
Jojo
That’s awesome. I love that. Could you describe your relationships with people of other trans or non-binary genders?
Devin
Yeah, so my partner is also Trans Masc, and so I’ve actually had the honor and ability of getting to see him start testosterone and get to see a lot of the changes that have been happening for him, which has been really exciting and also having to give him the tragic warnings of ‘welcome to puberty all over again everything is going to suck for the first year.’ Which, you know, it’s just, that’s, that’s kind of what it is, what you’ve gotta do. Yeah, it’s like, it’s not going to be pretty, but it’ll be worth it.
And then also, of course, you know, working with the Trans Lawrence Coalition, I meet people of so many different experiences when it comes to their gender and whatnot. And it kind of has just reinforced the- my kind of personal belief of like, ‘No two people will ever have the same gender because we all experience life just so differently as individuals.’ You find people of similar experiences that you can connect with and you have similarities with. But even if you and I use the same label, that doesn’t mean that we’re going to be anywhere close to being similar people or the same person. But that’s part of what I love about being involved with the community and whatnot is the amount of different people that you meet. And you might meet someone who again, you know, uses the same labels, but has such different experiences from what you do and getting to absorb all of those different perspectives has always been something that I’ve very much appreciated. And I try to be as active with folks as I can and make new friends and especially for people who are early on in their journey. I think it’s really important to have community support from people who have already gone through the process or were a little farther down the path than you may be. And so there’s folks that I’ve met where, you know, I, I’ve been the person who’s farther down the path. And then other times, you know, it’s, we have completely different experiences, but I’m still you know, someone who is supportive of you in any way that I can be and getting to meet and make so many friends of similar and different experiences to me is very fulfilling.
Jojo
Absolutely. Are there any of those experiences, whether with someone older or younger than you or further in their transition or just beginning their transition that are any of those experiences that jump out to you that you’d like to speak a little more on?
Devin
I think the… Actually, hang on, let me get permission to talk about this more… Alexander!
So, Alexander getting to start testosterone has probably been one of the most influential experiences. It’s definitely been, like, cool and also weird to be the person who’s kind of already gone through some of this stuff and to be like, ‘okay, yeah, that’s going to happen next. Watch out. It’s not fun.’ I remember warning him that you are going to end up with back knee and random voice cracks and you’re going to be sweaty as hell a lot of the time. And it’s going to suck. And butt hair, get more butt hair. That’s, I mean, that’s just a normal part of puberty for men. But then, you know, they don’t really warn you about that part when you’re Trans. They’re just like, ‘your voice is going to deepen and blah, blah, blah, blah,’ and then it’s like, no, you’re going to have fucking swamp ass 24/7… That’s what’s going to happen.
But it’s been exciting because there’s been times where he may not necessarily notice the difference, but I definitely do because I know what I’m supposed to be looking for, what signs kind of indicate that like, yeah, this is working. Or the time that one of my friends noticed that like, ‘hey, Alexander’s voice has definitely dropped. Has he realized that?’ And getting to bug him later and be like, ‘Hey, I need you to record a video of yourself and then go listen to the video that we took the day you started testosterone.’
So I think that has been, I think that’s been the most monumental one in the, the year that I’ve been out here is, you know, getting to see my partner go through all of the same stuff that I went through, and getting to see it all happen; who he’s becoming.
Jojo
Totally. That’s pretty awesome. Have any parts of your transition occurred in Kansas?
Devin
Not a ton of it, admittedly, at least not yet. I mean, I’ve continued hormone replacement therapy while I’ve been out here, I switched methods a little bit. So I’m on gel, and originally I was on packets and I got tired of packets, so I’m on the pump system now, which is much easier. But, you know, starting over with new doctors and all of that fun stuff that you have to do. So you’ll have to get monitored on a pretty regular basis – doesn’t really matter how long you’ve been on your hormones. And I mean, eventually, if I end up going through any additional surgical stuff, that’ll definitely happen out here. I had my top surgery back in 2021. So that was back when I was still living in Vegas. So not necessarily a lot of big things out here, more just the daily stuff that you have to do as a trans person and especially a young person who is still on hormone replacement therapy. It’s kind of the bulk of it at the moment.
Jojo
Do you think you’ve done- do you think coming to Kansas has, has additionally added to your social transition at all?
Devin
Oh absolutely. It’s having… Having community out here has been amazing. I’m someone where I’ve never necessarily been super private about being trans. It’s just, kind of, a part of life. But I also, you know, was never super obvious about it when I was back in Vegas, just because they’re definitely parts of Vegas that are kind of conservative and whatnot versus Lawrence, where I really just don’t have any concerns about, someone realizing or, you know, being super open about it. So not having to worry about that has definitely been very, very helpful because it- it takes away a lot of the- the stress that you often deal with when it comes to transition and especially once you’re farther along in transition. There’s still days where I think there’s concern or anxiety around passing and safety, especially with everything that’s going on in the world right now. So being in a place where it’s not really a problem and it doesn’t really matter has been very, very nice.
Jojo
How is your transition different at this point in time than you may have expected it to be when you began?
Devin
I mean, I don’t think 13 year old me would be expecting that I now, am- hit seven years on HRT three and a half years since I had top surgery, finishing my associates living in a completely different state. So there’s- there’s a lot of things that have happened that I don’t think younger me would have anticipated. Um, especially, especially living in Kansas of all places, um, and finding the community and whatnot that I have here and, you know, loving it out here.
But, um, there was still- when I was young, um, and I started HRT back in, uh, 2018, there was still a lot of… Just people, people didn’t know as much about trans folk back then or at least, know, like the, wider majority of people weren’t super aware of trans folk. Like we were kind of getting there, but it had not turned into what it is now with there being so much targeting and whatnot. And so, knowing that I’ve gotten this far and I’m getting married and legal name change is done. I checked off so many of the boxes that I kind of hoped that I would at some point, but wasn’t really sure if I would ever get there. And so, being able to say, like, ‘hey, look, this is where we’ve gotten, this is the family and the community that you’ve been able to build,’
Things have definitely not gone how I would have expected it and there’s a lot of things where my identity has shaped other parts of my life. It’s a big reason why I ended up deciding on going into social work and getting involved in things like CASA and working with youth just because of seeing how much support is really needed by just children in general, but especially children of marginalized identities. So it’s been a major, major part of my life and something that has really shaped the path that I have gone down.
I never thought that I would. I mean, I don’t really think I ever expected to look the way that I do. I don’t think I ever expected that I would be growing my hair back out or anything like that. There’s a lot of… comfort that I have now that I didn’t have when I was younger. I did a lot of things trying to build comfort and confidence in ways that just weren’t helpful. So to have it have developed naturally at this point and say like, ‘no, I’m happy where I’m at’ is… I don’t think something I ever would have imagined.
Jojo
That is so awesome. I love to hear that, and congratulations on being able to check those boxes off and being able to have that natural development. That’s something to be proud of. Do you have any intergenerational relationships with people of your same identity?
Devin
Not a ton. I don’t have anyone else in my family, at least at this moment, who is trans. Within the community, not necessarily anyone that I am particularly close with, but the work that I do has allowed me to meet a lot of really amazing older trans folk who are just as involved in fighting the good fight. We’ve got some really amazing people who are involved with the Trans Lawrence Coalition of all ages. We’ve got some really amazing people with PFLAG. PFLAG’s got a couple of older trans adults who I’ve gotten to talk to and meet them – and I’ve met one of the ladies’ wives. And it’s definitely, for me, it is definitely very meaningful to see older trans folk who have lived longer and doing this for longer and doing this from times when we did not really know what we were doing and to have gotten to where they are. And so those individuals within the community have definitely been very important in why I do what I do because I want- I would love for every person to be able to get to that stage. And so, to have those folks that you can look to and say, ‘they have done it, and it is possible’, has always been something that has meant a lot to me. And now that I work with kids, and it’s kind of the flip side of I am the adult in this situation. It’s been monumental to me of, like, yes, I’m an adult, but there are adults who are older than me who have been doing this for a long time. You don’t have to just look to me, kiddo. There is so much more… you know, I am the 20 something that is still a baby. I barely know what the hell I’m doing, but we’ve got folks that have been out and transitioning for, you know, 20, 30, 40 years at this point. and so those members of the community, I, their experiences and their- their insight and their wisdom is completely invaluable when it comes to the work that we do.
Having those individuals active in the community and being able to meet with them and talk with them. It’s that proof that we have made it before, we will make it again. And it does not matter where you are at in life or what stage of life you are in, there is always a way forward and always a better way forward as long as you stay with it.
Jojo
Totally. I think that’s very powerfully said. I think our elders are so important and yeah, that was very well said. Do you have any additional thoughts on community?
Devin
I think community is important because, I mean, especially in times like now. Not that I wish to compare, but I look at times of political turmoil like the ones that we’re in now. And I think back to the ‘60s, I think back to the ‘80s, I think back to Stonewall, I think back to the AIDS crisis. There have always been storms and events that have happened where an unfortunate amount of negative attention has been aimed at the most marginalized of marginalized people and that it is always incredibly dangerous when those times come. But I also look at the work and the things that have come from them.
I think back to Stonewall and it being the main, you know, big, big kickoff in the fight for gay rights and that it was trans women of color who primarily led the movement during and after Stonewall; I think back to the AIDS epidemic where it was the community coming together to take care of its own because doctors and hospitals wouldn’t; Of how the acronym started is ‘GLBT’ and became ‘LGBT’ because of the service that most a lot of lesbians provided and taking care of their gay male counterparts who were being neglected by the system. And as much of a scary time as we’re living through right now – and yeah, there people who are not going to see the end of it are not going to be here when things get better, because that is the unfortunate reality that we live in. So as a co-worker of mine who’s been in social work for a very long time would say, “every storm runs out of rain.” And I think that the only way that we get through these times is we come together and try to shield each other as much as we can.
Jojo
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think there’s strength in our unity and I think that that’s exactly what brings about the change that we need. Moving on, we’re going to go a little bit more towards your identity. And I’m interested to know what aspects of your identity are most important to you?
Devin
For me… I think at this point it’s the… freedom and ability to exist as I am. I’m not the most gender conforming in a lot of ways. I still wear makeup, I still paint my nails, my hair is longer, and just freedom of self expression and being able to do what I want, not because it’s expected or because that’s the way you’re supposed to do it. Just because, you know, just being able to say, I’m gonna do this because this is what I want to do. And this is what makes me happy. I would say, I don’t necessarily find that being trans and having that experience shapes the way that I see the world and society. But when it comes to day-to-day, you know, not really that different from anyone else. I still have to wake up in the morning and drag my ass out of bed when I don’t want to go to work and do all of the things that we do as human beings. And so it’s- it’s not that- it’s not that my identity or any part of my identity is not important to me, but I also think that it doesn’t change the fact that you’re just a human and you’re going to do what you want to do and just having comfort and freedom to express myself the way that I choose to was probably been the biggest part of the journey.
Jojo
100%. Do you find that there are any important influences on how you express that sense of self that you have the freedom to express?
Devin
I would say a lot of it goes back to the, kind of, more androgynous side of the ‘80s and ‘90s goth movement, which I got raised on the music. I have a mom who’s very into Depeche Mode, and The Cure, Susie and The Banshees… all of the bigs, the greats. And so that was something that I grew up with a lot. And as I got older and started to express myself a little bit more, definitely found myself very entrenched within alternative music and style and things like that. So I would say probably a lot of my major inspirations just go back to folks from a lot of different fans, and just individuals who were big in the scene, or just kind of the style of music and clothing that became popular at that time within goth-subculture. And it’s definitely been kind of been the thing for a long time at this point.
Jojo
Hell yeah, that’s awesome. And how does being trans impact other aspects of your being, whether it be race or class or ability?
Devin
I think that… I think that it’s been… a way for me to be able to understand and connect with people of different marginalized experiences. Because, while I may not have the exact same experience – you know, I’m a white person, I don’t, I’ve not had to deal with the effects of racism in the same way that someone who is black or indigenous or Hispanic would have to deal with – but I’ve had to deal with transphobia and I find that for better or worse, bigots are not very creative in the way that they are cruel. And that even though you might be targeted for a different thing, the rhetoric is often so similar that if you take away the identifying words, it makes it almost impossible to tell the difference between who they are aiming at specifically. You know, it’s, it’s always treating others as less than, or trying to make communities and individuals seem like horrible people.
And having that experience, it is something that, I mean, especially working in social work and mental health as I do now, I think provides a level of empathy that, you know, potentially a cis-white-person wouldn’t have. There’s a certain level of similar experiences, not shared experiences, but similar experiences where – Do I think that they are one-to-one comparable? No. Do I understand how it feels, though, to deal with systemic issues that have existed for decades prior to you being alive and will probably last for decades after. Yes. And so seeing the interconnectedness of our experiences, how it is all one system that links together to be horrible to people. And it, it all comes from the same place and it doesn’t matter who they’re targeting.
It is coming together and building community and building bridges; Even if we’re not focused on the exact same thing, that is the most important part.
And I try to remember that as much as possible and also appreciate and value the experiences and wisdom that can be provided by people’s experiences that I will never be able to relate to because I just don’t experience the same issues. But, being able to learn from individuals and saying, ‘okay, I will never be able to experience what you experience, but I can learn from you what has happened, what has made things worse, what has made things better. And you can learn from me and one way or another, we find a shared ability to deal with bullshit that is everyday life in this country.’
Jojo
Yeah. How, how has your understanding of gender or transness changed over the years? Or has it at all?
Devin
I would say it’s definitely changed over time. I… I know when I was younger I tended to look at things as more of a- ‘everyone has a box and you find a box that fits and that’s where you go.’ And I think that just kind of had to deal with I was very young at the time versus now or it’s ‘Nothing is real and fuck society; I am so tired of dealing with this shit.’ It’s kind of where we’re at now… I don’t fucking care anymore. And you kind of- kind of what I was saying earlier of, I mean, I don’t really think that anyone experiences gender in the same way. And thus, if we do not experience gender in the same way, then each of us has their own gender as defined by them, personally. And with gender being a social construct, I think that that’s very much the case of ‘I will always understand things a certain way in comparison to other people who will understand things their own way.’
And you know, it could be someone who also identifies as a Trans Man, but the reason why they define themselves as a Trans Man could be completely different from why I do. Not that I think that that’s a bad thing; if anything, I think it’s a good thing that we’re able to have such different experiences, but find that interconnectedness and that relatability for each other. But now I’m kind of at a point where I’m like, I don’t care what you call yourself, I don’t care how you explain things, just tell me what your name and your pronouns are. And if you care to explain at some point how you feel about things, great. If not, I do not care because it’s not my business.
Jojo
Cool. So then moving into our last section of questions here. I don’t really have a good label for this section, but they’re just a bit more thoughtful. So first one here is, could you tell me about your proudest moment?
Devin
I think my proudest moment… Probably recently, actually… And this wasn’t- I mean, I guess it was a big deal to some extent, but I was invited to speak at a local Lawrence PFLAG at a meeting that they were having, because I had gotten started on some of the youth stuff that TLC does now. And I was invited by their board to come out to a meeting and talk to the families that were there about what we were doing, what we working towards, and getting some feedback and whatnot. And so, to receive that recognition of, know, this is someone in the community who is doing these things and we want to hear about what you’re doing and, you know, contribute and… learn about what it is that you’re doing as it was, kind of, the first time that I had that moment of like, ‘Oh, I’m actually kind of, I’m dipping my toe into a community leadership territory. What the hell did I get myself into?’
But, uh, it was probably, I would, I would probably say my proudest moment recently of just, you know, another organization, another group, you know, being able to look at what I was doing and saying like, you’re doing something that’s very important right now. And I guess to- to have that validation from some folks who I very much respect in the community. It’s very rewarding.
Jojo
Absolutely. Yeah, doing the damn thing. That’s awesome; Congrats. I’m interested, now, to know if you could tell me about your most challenging moment?
Devin
I think… it’s been a long time, but I would probably say… cutting ties with my father and his family. That was hard to do. I was 14 and… struggling and still barely sure what the hell I was doing with myself as a teenager and having come out very recently still at that point and I wasn’t out to my dad’s parents and then, kind of, I still don’t necessarily know how much they know because of course I haven’t talked to them in so long. Kind of accidentally getting outed by one of, like, an extended family member and then dealing with having to kind of navigate that with my dad’s family and then cutting ties completely; It was a rough few months at that point when I was basically right around the time that I turned 14.
And that was really the only family that I’d ever known at that point, because we weren’t really close with my mom’s side of the family at that point. Or at least I wasn’t, since I hadn’t gotten to see any of them really. And it was very isolating. I went from having a more extended family to really just being my mom, my sister, and my sister’s grandma. And that was kind of it for a while. So that was hard, especially being a kid, I had no idea what I was doing at the time.
Jojo
And what sources of support did you rely on during that time to make it to where you are now?
Devin
Well, I had a very, very awesome therapist who I worked with for many years. And then my mom, who is extremely, extremely supportive of me. So, Having a really good psychologist and my mom and my sister, they’ve been my biggest supports through really everything. They’ve been very important in my life.
Jojo
I’m glad you had those supports in place to be able to help you through it. The next question here has three, kind of, topics to dive into within the question. So the question itself is, would you like to comment on any experiences that you faced in regards to safety and security; insecurities in the finances, the home or food, or mental health,; or physical health and addiction?
Devin
Um, I mean, in terms of safety, I transitioned very young. And so I went through high school being, not necessarily like out, but was kind of stealth for as long as I could. And so I did a lot of just, kind of, weird stuff to keep things private. I probably still deal with bladder issues from just going to school and then not using the restroom until I would come home because I was terrified of public restrooms at the time. Still kind of am, but that’s more just because they’re gross at this point. But that was definitely not the funnest thing to deal with, of just kind of safety in public and that kind of thing.
Financially, we did- I grew up with a very weird situation. From the outside, it definitely appeared that my family was, like, doing well and financially stable and yada yada yada roof over our head and stuff in the Christmas stockings. But my dad struggled with… he had a really, really severe gambling addiction. And so, we were not the most financially stable when I was a kid. So that- that financial anxiety was something that was very, very obvious for much of my childhood as much as my mom, kind of, tried to prevent it from becoming a thing. So that was definitely not pleasant to deal with.
And, you know, mentally I dealt with really severe depression starting at the age of 11 and, it took a- it took a long time to be able to manage all of that. And now, I actually work as a peer support specialist; so essentially as someone with lived-experience in terms of mental health and being able to, kind of, use that lived experience to help others who dealing with their own mental health issues, kind of guide them through, you know, what the process looks like, recovery and that this no, this is not the end of the line. There is stuff that comes after this. And so, being able to take those experiences and use them and work with the community has been very, very rewarding for me.
Jojo
That’s wonderful work and it’s great to see that situation turned, you know? Thank you for commenting on those. Would you like to recognize any additional important sources of support that you’ve interacted with across your life?
Devin
Yeah, I would say currently, as I got older, I got back in touch more with my mom’s side of the family. So I get to see a lot of her cousins on a regular basis now that I live in the same town as them, which having supportive family has been huge. And, of course, my, my partner, who has been a big supporter of me and the work that I do and has, kind of, ended up becoming an extremely active member of TLC, not because he intended to, but because I drag him to everything and he just kind of goes along with it and he’s like, yeah, sure, this is fine. He’s there for everything. Did he ask to be? Absolutely not. But, you know, we’ve had just- he is a huge support and his family has been incredibly welcoming and supportive of me and our relationship. so, which is very different from my experience with my previous relationships. To have that and to have someone who is as supportive and have such a supportive family has been amazing.
Jojo
Wonderful, wonderful. And then can you tell me a time or an experience where you felt truly, genuinely seen for how you see yourself?
Devin
I think that would be… I think that would be within, you know, the Trans Lawrence Coalition recently of, you know, just being recognized by people that I work with on a regular basis of, just, kind of that, ‘I see what you’re doing and I appreciate you.’ To take the lived experiences as far as I can, and make the best of it that I can, and to have so many amazing people that I work with on a regular basis who are so supportive of the work that I do; in turn, has been really incredible, not just on a gender and identity level, but also just on a personal level. And I’m incredibly, incredibly grateful for the people that I work with. Steering committee for TLC and some of the other really amazing folks that we have as members and volunteers who work so actively with the coalition. It’s been an amazing experience that I would not trade a thing.
Jojo
Absolutely, that’s wonderful. So, moving on to our last question here… before we get to that, I just wanna say thank you for doing this. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Thank you for being empowered to exist as you are and share this story with us. It’s beautiful and amazing and we really appreciate it.
Devin
Thank you.
Jojo
Absolutely! So, the last question here will close this recording. It’ll be the last- your words will be the last thing that we say here. So if your next sentence could be broadcast globally, is there anything that you would want to say to every person on the Earth right now?
Devin
Everyone is their own person and they deserve the freedom, the respect and the ability to live as they are, to be happy as they are, to be appreciated as they are, regardless of how you feel about who they are.